Edumacate me on AR15's
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Topic: Edumacate me on AR15's
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Subject: Edumacate me on AR15's
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:02am
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My brother just recently bought an AR15, and got me to thinking about the impending Zombie apocolypse and my possible need to arm myself. Let's start the conversation by saying, I know little if anything about AR15's other than they are the civilian variant of the M4/M16 correct? If I were to buy/build one, what should I look for? I don't necessarily care about a lot of add ons as far as I know, I would mainly be getting something for occasionally going out and target shooting and/or shreading the brain stems of the non-dead. What should I steer clear of? What costs should I expect? From my understanding, there are several companies that make them and there are better/worse uppers/lowers? Any good sites that info that wold help? My brother mentioned something about his being able to shoot different ammo or something? I'd ask him more about it, but would like to have some outside input. Not necessarily in the market to buy right this second, but considering selling some PB gear to cover the costs if I did decide to take the plunge.------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Replies:
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:15am
Incorrect, the M4/M16 is the military variant of the AR15. AR15 came first. Sure, it's a technical point, but important none the less.
Steer clear of anything high end then. Building is cheaper than buying, but right now, even component prices are high. Bolt group carriers (bcgs) being the thing most affected by this. Don't go for a high-end lower. There's no difference other than the stamp on the mag well that states who made it. For uppers, definitely go with a forward assist upper. You don't often need it, but it's nice to have in a jam (hah! I made a pun!)
You want a 5.56mm upper so you can shoot both .223cal and 5.56mm. The difference is small, but not negligible enough to allow you to fire 5.56 out of a .223 upper. ar15.com (Arfcom affectionately) is a great place to find "sticky" posts about these kinds of questions. Again, no need to go Troy or whatnot for your receiver, but don't go with the ultra-cheap either.
I'd eat the costs now and sell the pb gear to recoup afterwards. The prices are only going to keep going up, and if legislation gets pushed through like we think it will, you're going to be SOL on finding a non-used AR anytime soon. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
oldpbnoob wrote:Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:24am
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I stumbled across one forum discussing costs and saw figures anywhere from $600 ++. Are there any specific online places for buying? Problem is, I'm not at a great place right now fundage to put out money for something like this without selling some gear. Depending on what I am looking at for costs, I would need to get an idea of what all I could/would need to sell before really going forward. I have a fair amount of PB stuff to sell, but the market is crap and I hate taking massive losses on stuff. What I have into it and what I can get for it are fairly far apart right now. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Ceesman762
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:54am
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Wow, had I moved to Ohio, I could have built you one....
------------- Innocence proves nothing FUAC!!!!! |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 12:31pm
$600 is about right for the basic AR. You can go cheaper, but then you're limiting yourself to .223 only, or some such other hurdle. The most important thing to buy first is the lower receiver. This is what the BATFE considers the "firearm" as it's where the serial number is located. It also won't set you back much. You can buy a stripped lower for under $100 in some cases, though that price is likely to jump. After that, it's a matter of slapping the parts kit of your choice on/in and then pairing it with an upper. All told, you're looking at around $550-$600 to build one from "scratch" There are a couple of tools that will up that expense just a bit. A magwell block if you have a vise is handy, but not necessary. You'll need a castle nut wrench, and potentially an armorer's tool if you plan on building your upper instead of buying a complete one. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: usafpilot07
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 12:53pm
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No chance I could add anything better than Tallen has. Just wanted to drop off my recommendation for an affordable one. It's the brand that often gets recommended over on the officer.com forums when someone needs something a little more affordable. http://www.del-ton.com/carbine_rifles_s/2.htm Other than that, they almost unanimously(other than the smaller, specialized companies) say to stick with Colt, DD, Bravo, or MP non sport models. ------------- Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo |
Posted By: SSOK
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:09pm
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I'm looking at essential arms, myself. Basic non offensive scroll marks, good price, great quality, etc. I'm probably going to buy a upper and lower from them and build from there. I want the anno to match. ------------- 
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Posted By: Skillet42565
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:22pm
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I just finished my own build, and if you have an armorers wrench its not hard at all. The only thing I don't have yet is the back up sights, which I'll throw some 100 dollar Magpuls on and call it done. I went with a Stag Lower, Rainier assembled upper, Ranier 5.56 barrel, and Brownells stock kit. For my guns guts, I went with Doublestar, as they're made locally right up the road from me in Winchester, KY. They make really nice quality parts at a very reasonable price. The only real things that are personal preference are going to be your pistol grip, forearm and muzzle device. I went with a Troy VTAC free floated, since I like the slim and smooth look, with the monolithic (continuous rail on top) look. I also went with a Ranier XTC muzzle brake, as muzzle brakes allow for flatter recoil, but definitely piss everyone else at the range off, since they're very loud and bright. ------------- 
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Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:29pm
Why? You're going to be rattle-canning it to help you hide come the revolution...... ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 1:38pm
| The great thing about building one, is that you can spread the cost over time. Secure the lower first. |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 2:35pm
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My recommendation? Step 1: Buy an already assembled Bushmaster M-4. Step 2: Add enough accessories that you've now negated any weight benefits the M-4 design has to offer. Step 3: Go to the range and compare your level of tacticool as opposed to the 19 year old next to you. Be sure to point out that your flashlight / flare launcher combo cost more than his optics and snicker smugly Step 4: Realize that you've bought a grown man's Barbie doll and trade it immediately for an M1A. Step 5: Tell your wife that the phase is over and she can come back. ------------- 
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Posted By: evillepaintball
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:10pm
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How's bushmaster quality these days? ------------- 
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Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:20pm
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Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:25pm
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My last AR venture was 3 years ago, but at that time they were considered on the mid to high end in terms of holding value. Of course, the AR design is so mass produced now days you'd likely have to look to find a crap one. There are lots of good, inexpensive options. My High Standard and two Bushmasters ate through all types of ammo accurately and reliably. -------------
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Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:37pm
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I can't tell you how Bushmaster's quality is, I'll get a strike. All in all there are two very separate forms of AR 15 on the market. Working tools and range toys. There are some good deals to be had if you know what to look for and if you buy the right tool for the job. The hobby guns, $600 guns and the built it yourself ones are more or less all in the same bracket, however you can sometimes end up paying just as much for a hobby level gun as you will for a fighting gun. If you want a tough as nails, die hard gun that'll see you through the end times, get something from Colt, BCM or a couple of other manufacturers. A hobby gun is great for a couple of mags per trip to the range. For classes with round counts in the 1500 region you're going to need something better. If you want a fighting gun, go look at a couple of websites run by fighting men, not hobby shooters. You'll probably end up paying a wee bit more, but not always..... KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: stratoaxe
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:52pm
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These AR discissions always remind me of talking guitars with my more wealthy friends. "Mexican strats? You can't tune them. Complete garbage." "Non custom shop Ibanez? How do your fingers endure that Indonesian wood?" Teasing, of course (except the quotes-those are real.) Also, as far as Colt, most AR shooters I know claim Colt build has diminished greatly over the years. -------------
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Posted By: impulse418
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 4:37pm
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Buy a SCAR, and be done with it. If you still want the AR platform. LWRC and Knight Arms. Buy once, cry once. |
Posted By: oldsoldier
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 5:06pm
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Why all the bobbles and whistles, have 2 AR-15's one a Colt SP-1 the 'original' AR-15, triangle front handguards, pencil barrel, fixed carry handle, the basic 1 ea semi auto version of the M16A1 rifle of the time. Second is a DPMS clone CAR-15, heavy barrel, heavy compensator, fixed carry handle, A2 sights, a basic 'plinker' or zombie killer, but more a coyote killer anymore. Simple rifles, can hit out to 250m consistant and accurate, don't need no do-dads or high speed low drag stuff mounted on it to look 'purty'. The KISS principle applies more than not in a firefight. My M1A (M-14) and my M-1 Garand are for the 250m+ needs, again basic military sights, basic issue models. My deer rifle alternates between the following, Model 91 45/70 'Buffalo Rifle', M91/30 Moison Nagant, or my Sharps 1863 in .54. ------------- 
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Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 5:28pm
------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 5:37pm
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Especially with looming bans, a SCAR seems like a bad idea. Good luck finding parts. You want to look for well-built parts, made to appropriate specs. Continental machine tooling is supposed to produce the best parts. Colt, Rock River, S&W, Stag etc. get high marks. I think Stag is a great deal for the money, ugly roll-mark and atrocious muzzle breaks aside. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 10:21pm
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Colt do not have bad weapons. They are totally top tier. Especially when you are talking about the M4 or .mil spec. The only guys who have the Technical Data Package for building M4's are Colt and FN Hershal. Everyone else, even the good ones, are doing it by ear. A current Colt will have the correct heat treatment, will have properly staked parts that need staking, will be properly in "spec". The whole "Colt diminishing" is a myth akin to "M16's jam all the time". It simply isn't true. Like Impulse said, LWRC, Knights Arms, Noveske, BCM, Colt and Daniel Defense are all solid working guns. Even DD had some issued this past year that let some customers down. Rock River, Stag, Olympic, DPMS, DelTron, Bushmaster, Black Rain and a bunch of other makers all make hobby guns. GO ask the guys who run them. Pat Rogers for one runs BCM's pretty much exclusively in his classes. He is very free with the info on what performs to standard and what dies. All his after course reports which had hobby guns in the mix mostly had the hobby guns breaking in them. Simply fact. If you shoot a LOT, the hobby guns will fail at a faster rate than the more reliable fighting guns. It is all in what you need. I only need a rifle capable of a couple of hundred rounds a year. It is all I can afford. So a hobby gun will fit me needs. Get the right tool for the job. Buy whichever AR you think you need, but put some thought into it. Also, do proper research. A PB forum isn't it. Be aware that you can end up paying for a DPMS almost as much as a decent manufacturer. Get an Aimpoint H-1, a Surefire Fury Defender or EAG version in a decent mount like the Viking Tactics and call it a day. KBK PS S&W also make more or less hobby guns, but they are on the upper scale of hobby guns. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:09pm
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So, I just did a quick check of my usual sources for stripped lowers. Who needs an AWB to prevent the sale of ARs? Apparently not us because you can't even buy the main component necessary to build one at the time of this writing. Found polymer EFFING POLYMER lowers going for $150 on J&G, AIM is out. SOG is out. PSA is out. CMMG is out. I'm guessing DSA and everyone else are in the same boat right now. AR prices jumped yet again. PMags were $60/ea on CTD earlier today, and AKs are hitting the $700 mark as we speak DEALER PRICE. SKSs are still at their pre-weekend prices for Chicom (in crap condition), but it looks like the new batches of Yugos and Albanians that just went up are ~$25-$50 higher than a month ago. CAI has "replacement" receivers still in at $87 for ARs right now, but not sure what their "replacment" deal is. As soon as I find out though, I'm going to buy an inch or metric pattern FAL receiver before my dreams get dashed. Also probably going to spend the $200 or so for a Chicom SKS sooner rather than later. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: deadeye007
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 11:18pm
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I don't think supply will meet demand before an executive order to ban "evil black rifles" takes place. Find a lower first, but it might be an uphill battle getting one at a decent price. ------------- Face it guys, common sense is a form of wealth and we're surrounded by poverty.-Strato |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 7:37am
Hence my desire for an FAL lower. Now I just need to see which parts kits SARCO has in stock. Metric or Inch. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 9:35am
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I get what you're saying KBK, but also just in the first stages of even looking at these. Its one of the reasons I asked for some resources to be able to get an idea of where to even go. I have very little info from people around me and figured some of people here would be a good place to at least get an idea of where to look. I know my brother has done some research, but he tends to get very tunnel visioned about things and while he will research the heck out of things before he makes a decision, he still makes very odd decisions sometimes. I'm cheap, but would rather have a solid plain Jane better built ___ than a fancy, flashy POS ____.. You can always add flash, if you have a solid core. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: Kayback
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 12:26pm
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That's cool. I'm not saying you MUST get one of those, just keep an open mind and do the research. Quite often you'll find, say, a DPMS for the same price as a Colt 6920. Then you'd be much better off getting the Colt. For bare bones but still really good rifles, (if you can find any at the moment) the Colt 6920, the S&W MP15. You can buy the Colt at Walmart for $1100, roughly. The thing is you won't need to do ANYTHING to it. It'll run as is through pretty much whatever you want. There are lesser guns that retail at the same level that aren't as good. Honestly anything labelled "as good as" is probably not. KBK ------------- Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. H = 2 |
Posted By: oldpbnoob
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 12:45pm
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Cabellas and Gander Mountain seem to have the S&Ws for around $1k. ------------- "When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter. |
Posted By: tallen702
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 1:03pm
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Hey Kayback. Ordering my metric pattern FAL receiver this weekend. Getting a matched Belgian-made Israeli metric parts kit with standard rear sight in early Jan. Anything I should know before jumping in with both feet? Shorty and I are both pretty clueless on the FAL other than the historical significance, so I figured I'd ask someone who's been hands-on with one. ------------- <Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.> |
Posted By: rednekk98
Date Posted: 19 December 2012 at 1:13pm
| I'd love a smith and wesson, but the sporter models they sell here don't have chrome-lined barrels. |
Posted By: Mr.Sam98C
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 4:05pm
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My brother and I built one with some higher end parts, like a Daniel Defense bolt carrier group (lots say it's one of the best to get) and mil-spec upper and lower. It's a midlength gas system, and we tacked on some nice looking magpul handguards and collapsing stock. All in all it ended up being about $1k. It's also a flat top upper with a detach carry handle, and we tossed a used leupold 2-7X33mm on it, and it really does the buisness for either shooting varmints out to 5, 6 and even 7 (pushing it) hundred yards. But it's still compact enough that it works great for room clearing and up close social work.
------------- In the broad spectrum of bad ideas I think this would have to rate somewhere between running with scissors and sticking your pecker in the toaster. |