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Canada refuses asylum for US soldiers

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    Posted: 25 March 2005 at 9:39am
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Originally posted by CNN.com CNN.com wrote:


TORONTO (AP) -- The Canadian government has denied refugee status to former U.S. Army paratrooper Jeremy Hinzman, a major blow to a handful of U.S. military deserters who have fled to Canada rather than fight in a war they claim commits atrocities against civilians.

Thursday's decision, which was formally announced on a government Web site, could affect at least eight -- and possibly dozens more -- American soldiers seeking refuge in Canada, yet help improve strained relations between Washington and Ottawa.

Canada opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. The Pentagon has urged the deserters to return to the United States and take up their concerns at their respective military bases.

The ruling, written by Immigration and Refugee Board member Brian Goodman, said Hinzman had not made a convincing argument that he would face persecution or cruel and unusual punishment if sent back to the United States.

Goodman said that while Hinzman may face some employment and social discrimination, "The treatment does not amount to a violation of a fundamental human right, and the harm is not serious."

Hinzman's attorney, Jeffry House, said his client would appeal the ruling and still believed that he would be granted refugee status in Canada.

"He is disappointed," House told CBC TV. "We don't believe that people should be imprisoned for doing what they believe is illegal."

Hinzman, 26, fled from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, in January 2004, weeks before his 82nd Airborne Division was due to be deployed to Iraq. He had served three years in the Army, but had applied for conscientious objector status before his unit was sent to Afghanistan in 2002.

Hinzman lives with his wife and toddler son in Toronto, where Quakers and the War Resisters coalition of anti-war groups have taken on his cause and provided some shelter. Coalition supporters intend to demonstrate later Thursday in front of the U.S. Consulate in Toronto.

Hinzman argued before the Immigration and Refugee Board last December that he would have been taking part in war crimes if he had been deployed with his unit. He claimed the war in Iraq was illegal and he would be persecuted if forced to return to the United States.

Hinzman could face charges of desertion if sent home and would face up to five years in prison. He and seven other U.S. military deserters are being represented by House, a Wisconsin native who came to Canada in 1970 as a draft dodger during the Vietnam War.

House believes there are as many as 100 other American war resisters hiding in Canada, waiting to see how Hinzman's case is played out before coming forward. He said the 30,000 to 50,000 Americans who fled to Canada during Vietnam and were allowed to settle here, but that Hinzman would have become the first American soldier to be granted political asylum in Canada.

During the Vietnam era, young American men could be drafted into military service, but now enlistment in U.S. military is voluntary. The military attracts many young recruits with job skills training and programs that help pay for university.

Pvt. 1st Class Joshua Key, 26, of Oklahoma City is the latest war resister to flee to Toronto, arriving two weeks ago with his wife and four children. He told the Toronto Star that he served in Iraq with the 43rd Combat Engineering Company, which was deployed in April 2003.

Key said he served eight months in Iraq before he left the military when he was on leave back at the 43rd's base in Fort Carson, Colorado in December 2003.

"I was in combat the entire time I was there," said Key. "I left for Iraq with a purpose, thinking this was another Hitler deal. But there were no weapons of mass destruction. They had no military whatsoever. And I started to wonder."


So, what does everyone think of this? I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, these soldiers signed up mostly to pay for an education, see the world, and/or defend America. On the other, they signed up knowing full well that they could be called upon to engage in combat in foreign countries, to 'protect' the USA.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 9:42am
Well, we aren't really defending America. We are more on an offensive.

He DID sign up for the Army, right? So he has a commitment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frozen Balls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 9:46am
Yes, that's the kicker. They signed up to defend America, not to go on the offensive against every country who wants to grow without our help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 98God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 9:48am
He signed..It is his responsability(sp?).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Variable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 9:48am
Don't split hairs; they signed up to obey the orders of their commander and chief.  Their service is not limited to defending the U.S. from an invading army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 9:58am
Time for a nice vacation in Mexico...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pariel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Variable Variable wrote:

Don't split hairs; they signed up to obey the orders of their commander
and chief.  Their service is not limited to defending the U.S.
from an invading army.


Exactly. I sincerely hope that they are extradited to the US, and get courtmartialed, because, at least in my opinion, they are simply saying that gross dereliction of duty, and even desertion is OK. This isn't Vietnam, they weren't forced to fight (although I believe that the draft dodgers during the Vietnam era didn't do the right thing either), they signed up, and when they did that, they said they would obey the orders handed down by their superiors, and would protect our country from invaders, both foreign and domestic. They said they were willing to go to war, and then when they found out that the government was actually trying to gain something from the war (who would thought, someone fighting a war to get something? no...), they decided it was time to run and hide. I understand the abuse allegation, but he would have had to been physically present and active in the abuse for him to be committing it, now wouldn't he? These guys joined up to get some cash, some education even, and they didn't think what it meant. To me, they're the worst kind of deserters-stupid ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MT. Vigilante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:03am

Originally posted by Variable Variable wrote:

Don't split hairs; they signed up to obey the orders of their commander and chief.  Their service is not limited to defending the U.S. from an invading army.

That’s right, the excuse of “I didn’t know I was going to war when I signed up.” Is a load of crap, everybody knows when they sign up that the Army is no Boy Scout troop, they fight and kill whenever they are expected to, and anyone who signs up knows that. So these guys are deserters and just that, and I am glad that Canada refused to give them asylum.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:03am
the best defensive is a good offensive...


i think they should get the boot... all they needed to do was tell their CO they are ghay or bi and they would have had their papers in 3 days...now their going to jail and getting bad papers.

"Time for a nice vacation in Mexico..." mexico signed something a few years ago allowing the US to go into mexico to get people running from US law or something... this would be one of those times... i could be wrong though

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:05am
I hope they get to Europe or Mexico or somthing.
Run and be free, stay out of jail just for your opinion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:06am
People like them disgust me.
You have a contract with the US Government. You didn't fulfill it; you go to jail.
End of story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

I hope they get to Europe or Mexico or somthing.
Run and be free, stay out of jail just for your opinion.


It's not a matter of their opinion.
They can disagree with the war, but they still have an obligation by law to fulfill their duties and obey commands.
They knew that when they signed up, and they signed a contract. Too bad they don't like it, but they have to be responsible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:01am
Sure smells like desertion to me, or at least AWOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:08am
They took an oath, to obey the comander and cheife. You cant go into the military and pick and choose what you want to do. Its a bloody order, you dont agree with it? Tough titties, do the job, then take it up with your superiors. They are a soldiers, "Tis not the soldiers' to sit and reason why, but tis to do and die." They signed a contract and are expected to do you job. They signed up, they joined, they were trained in weapons, what did you think you were going to do? Bake brownies all day? This is the most selfish act a can think of, deserting your country. They join the military for an education, basicaly looking for an easy ride and something nice to put on a resume, but when they actualy have to get their hands dirty, they back out of a writen contract, and fail to uphold a solemn oath they took.

If you cant tell, im kinda mad people desert. If you dodged the draft during vietnam, thats a different story. But deserting after you volunteered. Thats inexusable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

I hope they get to Europe or Mexico or somthing.
Run and be free, stay out of jail just for your opinion.


It's not a matter of their opinion.
They can disagree with the war, but they still have an obligation by law to fulfill their duties and obey commands.
They knew that when they signed up, and they signed a contract. Too bad they don't like it, but they have to be responsible.


I swear, you brainwashed kids sound just like Nazis....just because the government tells you to do something doesn't mean you do it....Jeeze....you guys are lemmings!

So, say you signed up for the Marines....you wanted to defend out country. To defend our country, we decide to invade Somalia. You disagree, but go anyway, since it's your duty.

Your orders are to torch a village, but you don't want to do it because that's a bad thing....but you've got orders!

What do you do? Be an actual compassionate human being and tell your superiors to go kick rocks, or a soulless robot who follows every command given to him?

Personally, I'm a human being with free will, and I don't care what I sgined up for, I have morals and values and no hard-on war-monger is gonna change them.

I mean seriously, the perfect anology would be if you were a new COP on the force. The first guy you pull over, one of your superiors says to beat him down. By your logic, you "just follow orders" and do the WRONG thing!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:18am
Draft dodging is a completely different thing. I still hate it because i would join if drafted.

People like this guy should be out in jail for deserting. You don't just serve in the army for three years and then when they actually need you to fight you just run to Canada.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:30am
Zesty, i think the correct thing to do would be follow orders, you trust your life with the people in the feild with you. Your superiors are your superiors for a reason, they have battle time. Follow orders. Its a war, not a traffic stop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:48am
^ I guess we just disagree then.

Because to me, if someone asks you to do something you are morally opposed to, you tell them to go shove it.

You don't degrade yourself and your values by stooping to someone else's (low)level of values....you stick up for what you believe in.

I don't know if you guys are just really disciplined, just really like taking orders, or just have no morals and values, but I totally disagree with "just following orders."

I mean Hitler was a superioir to his soldiers, and he told them to throw Jews in ovens! How many lives could have been saved if those soldiers had stood up for what was right and not just followed the orders of their superiors?! Millions!

How do you know that these soldiers who are fleeing to Canada are not doing something valiant?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:50am
zesty do you know anything about the millatary? when you sign up you are no longer a free person you no longer make decissions. you listin and follow orders...

and being a law enforcement officer is MUCH different than being in the millatary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:55am
Well Zesty i come from a military family. If i were to serve it goes without saying, if my CO told me to line up a bunch of civilians and kill them, i wouldnt do it, ide probably get sick on the spot. But, if i was told to burn a village, i would, think the village is being burned for a reason.
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