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Rifled sniper Barrels?

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Dufferdawg View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 August 2006 at 9:04pm
Are these worth it?  I saw some write-up on a 21" rifled sniper barrel saying ti was great.  Any thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2006 at 9:23pm

...

Sniping doesn't work in paintball, rifling is about useless, and you don't need anything longer than 14".

There.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sinisterNorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2006 at 9:03am
No, they're not worth it. No snipers in paintball = no sniper barrels. If you want a good barrel, look into a 12-14" LAPCO Bigshot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerBD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2006 at 5:23pm
There are snipers in paintball, though not very many and most of them play woodsball. The longer the barrel is then usually the greater the range and accuracy is (but not in all cases).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2006 at 5:37pm

Nope. No snipers. Sniping is more than shooting concealed, it is outranging your opponent and making an elimination of a high value target with the most possible accuracy beyond the range of effective return fire. Read this (highlight "blank" boxes):

Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

...

The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of Paintball.

Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.

< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to fix it, PM me. -- >

First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.

“A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.

The American Revolution (1775-83)

Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution. Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.

Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.

“A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards, with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket

 In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of 300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.

Brown Bess

Long Rifle

Range:

80 Yards

300 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

1100-1300 fps

 ~1600fps

Ammunition:

.75 caliber ball

.40-.70 caliber ball

As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the time by over 200 yards. Also the muzzle velocity of the Rifle was much higher than that of the Brown Bess.

The War of Northern Aggression (American Civil War) (1861-65)

During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards. The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.

Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500 yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.

The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.

Springfield/Enfield

Kerr & Withworth

Range:

 1200+ yards

500 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

Ammunition:

.451 Hexagonal Slug

 

World War I (1914-18)

US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of  the standard service rifle the Springfield 1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.

World War II (1938-45)

World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft. They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much the same way as snipers in WWI  were. These snipers used accurized  versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.

M1 Garand

M1903A3

Range

500 yards

1000yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

Korea (1950-53)

Korea, in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition, looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in Korea did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them. The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3 Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4 power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of the Springfield, due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.

M1D Sniper Model

M1903A3 Sniper

M2 Machine Gun

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

2500 yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

.50 Caliber

 

Vietnam (1965-75)

Vietnam is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers. Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle, accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308) cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective return fire of the enemy.

M16

Winchester 70

M40

M14 Sniper

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

1000 Yards

700 yards

Ammunition

5.56mm

.30-06

7.62x51mm

7.62x51mm

Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among snipers, lets analyze these facts:

A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a unit but in a one or two man team.

This is possible in paintball, most of the time in scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission. But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing general) walks by.

A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and eliminates them.

Targets of High Value in a military sense are:

  1. Officers:
    • Generals
    • Field Grade officers
    • Company Grade officers
  2. Forward Observers
  3. Crew Served Weaponry:
    • Heavy Machine Guns
    • Artillery Batteries
    • Mortar Crews
  4. Non Commissioned Officers
  5. Radiomen

Targets of High Value in Paintball:

  1. Generals
  2. Tank Crewman (if there are tanks)
  3. Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can think of...

The problem with selecting high value targets in a scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other players.

The Sniper fires at targets from beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.

As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard infantry training.

This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to 150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those ranges are close to zero.

The sniper uses a single accurate shot to take his targets down.

The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7 rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed kill.

It is possible to take targets down with a single shot in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.

A sniper uses camouflage and concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.

No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you sniper.

Now as you can see there are several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of a Sharpshooter:

“A sharpshooter… is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Ok, this looks a little more feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?

For paintball purposes we can strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.

“who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

This sounds feasible. The definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player” that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a sharpshooter in a military sense.

So we will set forth the definition of a Sharpshooter in paintball. This is what most of you would call a Sniper in paintball.

A sharpshooter takes shots from concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker that has the same range as everyone else’s. This is not a Sniper. This is a sharpshooter. You will never be a sniper in paintball simple ballistics prevent this from ever happening.

The fact of the matter is if you think you are a sniper in paintball, your terminology is wrong. The definition of a sharpshooter, fits paintball a lot closer that the definition of a sniper. But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy: You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.

The definition of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman fits what you are doing in paintball a whole lot better than Sniper does. Stop fooling yourself.

References:

SNIPER- Adrian Gilbert

One Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts

Marine Sniper- Charles Henderson

Authors Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up, or in the wrong place.

 

As for the barrel, longer is NOT more accurate, and does NOT increase range. You're a newbie here, so I'll hold back on harshness for the moment. Don't make this any worse...



Edited by DeTrevni - 24 August 2006 at 5:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2006 at 8:52pm
Longer barrel=more range is a total myth. If you think differently, explain how you think two identical paintballs fired at the same velocity at the same angle from two different length barrels will travel different distances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jmann4567 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2006 at 8:58pm
Longer barrel does not mean more distance or accuracy. What it does mean is worse air effeciency.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote an94 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2006 at 12:46am

A rifled barrel has a SLIGHTLY better pattern. 1-2 in better than a smooth barrel. Are they worth it? depends on what you like. and yes DE is right, 12-14 in is all you need. 21 in is a waste of good air and good money. go for a good 2 peice barrel so you can change out the front to get the right size for the paint you use.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DVLCHLD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2006 at 3:41pm
an94 has it right. 14" is the longest you need a barrel to be. The only people that don't believe a rifled barrel works are the people that haven't used a truly rifled Hammer Head barrel.
I've never seen anyone own the woods because of what marker they use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Koyote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2006 at 9:45pm

I've heard about people using rifled barrels on there paintball guns and I honesty don't see how the rifling in the barrel could possible cause the ball to spin. Now I own a few barrels myself and to me the longer the barrel the longer the range but usualy the ball won't break.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2006 at 9:54pm
You people need to take a physics class. Longer barrel does not equal more range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerBD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2006 at 10:58pm

If you have a really short barrel it can affect your range and accuracy though.

Example: if two people had Tippmann A-5's, and one had a 1" barrel and the other a 14" barrel, the one with the 14" barrel would have longer range and accuracy. But if one person had a 35" barrel and the other a 16" barrel the one with the 16" barrel would perform better. I'm just saying you don't want a really long barrel or a really short one. Length of your marker barrel does affect your marker performance, thers no denying this.

I'm just trying to prove a point.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2006 at 11:20pm

Originally posted by KillerBD KillerBD wrote:

There are snipers in paintball, though not very many and most of them play woodsball. The longer the barrel is then usually the greater the range and accuracy is (but not in all cases).

Psh. Hypocrite...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hybrid-sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2006 at 2:03am

Originally posted by You Wont See Me You Wont See Me wrote:

You people need to take a physics class. Longer barrel does not equal more range.

In paintball-terms, correct. In real-life guns, that is often not true, and this is why people get these beliefs that the most akkurt guns have these 3 yard long barrels and revers-titano-nano-micron rifling.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerBD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2006 at 10:03am
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

Originally posted by KillerBD KillerBD wrote:

There are snipers in paintball, though not very many and most of them play woodsball. The longer the barrel is then usually the greater the range and accuracy is (but not in all cases).

Psh. Hypocrite...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2006 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

...

Sniping doesn't work in paintball, rifling is about useless, and you don't need anything longer than 14".

There.



^^^ He's right on almost everything there except for one fact. Testing with the Armson* rifled barrels did indicate a minor increase in accuracy. The increase was attributed to the rifleing providing for a better paint/barrel fit as opposed to it imparting spin on the paint. Stop motion photography indicated no significant difference in spin between the rifled and non-rifled barrels. (Actually, since he said "about useless", I think he was completely right and I'm just providing mildly interesting trivia.

*Test was only conducted between armson rifled and non-rifled barrels, no matter what other manufacturers may say, I have never seen actual proof to support any other claims. (I think it was in APG a few years ago.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2006 at 11:32pm

Even if it does help, it doesn't help enough to justify the price you will undoubtably pay.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2006 at 12:18am
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

Even if it does help, it doesn't help enough to justify the price you will undoubtably pay.



The Armsons aren't that expensive, but when I tried one on my A5 I had a lot of breaks.  (And they do not shoot clean.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote an94 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2006 at 2:17am
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

Even if it does help, it doesn't help enough to justify the price you will undoubtably pay.

Oh wow $50 armson vs $150 boomstick, etc
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lighting up newbies all day long= Priceless
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