Attn: Kayback

Marikana Platinum Mine. All I know i what I saw on Al-Jazeera and Liveleak, and I'm trying not to go off in rage prematurely on this one. 

Got any of a more local take on what exactly the hell went down here? Something to put this in context and explain? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, you're just my 'go to guy' for anything South Africa.

yeah, the video off a news outlet showed a group of miners charging with machetes.  

The new union called a Wild cat strike a couple of days ago. The strike was declared illegal and NUMSA tried to get involved. There was a brief disagreement between the unions and it was going to turn ugly so the police were called in. During the violence between the unions two police men were attacked with knives and machetes and killed. Two mine security guards were also killed as were 3 miners and 4 bystanders. That's when reinforcements were a sent in, about two days ago.

The police spent yesterday trying to disperse the crowd and contain it, if you understand what I mean. The crowd was brandishing weapons in the form of traditional weapons and firearms. Brandishing firearms is illegal, as is taking them to gatherings of people (I forget the numbers 300 + iirc). The decision was made to disarm them as there had been deaths already.

The cops were trying to set up razor wire barricades to keep the rioters away from each other when they advanced on the cops. They ignored orders to disperse, disarm or stop. Less than lethal stun grenades and rubber bullets were used, to no effect. As the 4000 strong armed mob closed in on the 400 police they switched to legal force. Shots were fired at the cops but I do not know when on the timeline.

After the shooting some weapons were recovered, including the service pistol of one of the two murdered cops.

There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth but I think the cops acted correctly

Edited by Kayback - 17 August 2012 at 8:43am

Kayback wrote: The cops were trying to set up razor wire barricades to keep the rioters away from each other when they advanced on the cops. They ignored orders to disperse, disarm or stop. Less than lethal stun grenades and rubber bullets were used, to no effect. As the 4000 strong armed mob closed in on the 400 police they switched to legal force. Shots were fired at the cops but I do not know when on the timeline. After the shooting some weapons were recovered, including the service pistol of one of the two murdered cops. There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth but I think the cops acted correctly

Sounds like that saying of yours..."Play stupid games win stupid prizes".

Really, FE? How old are you? 43? Act like an adult for once.

Kayback wrote:  Mainly because of our history and the police using such deadly force to preserve the white government in the 80's.

Kayback wrote: Not really much more to it than member transfer. The unions have always been rather militant in this country. I do not know if that is a holdover from Apartheid, when they were actually fighting for something important. The unions, as much as I hate to help FE along, have always used fear and intimidation tactics to help their cause, be it recruitment or out of the negotiating room persuasion. One of the things that annoys the heck out of me is there is ALWAYS violence, be it against other people or just property, and the unions ALWAYS claim it wasn't their members, but agent provocateurs or just plain criminals hiding in the union member marches. The unions in South Africa, especially the big ones like NUM, are more and more politically active, which IMHO is a bad thing. Miners in South Africa have always been ready to take the fight to the government, as in the 1922 white miners strike. http://www.joburgnews.co.za/march2002/1922strike.stm The Airforce and army artillery was used then.

Copycats!

Seriously though, most mining unions have, at some point in their history, relied on fear and violence. Maybe not at the top, but at some point down the chain, people tend to start taking to violence as a way to solve things on their own terms. Although, let me stress this very much, I honestly believe the violence stems more from mob mentality than from the act of unionization.

You get enough people worked up over the same thing in the same place at the same time and you get a riot, it just so happens that all the rioters in these kinds of cases are of the same trade.

Depending on who is at the top, well, you can either take this loosely controlled rabble army and use it as a bargaining chip, or you can tell them to all put down their machetes and conduct a peaceful strike. Back home, the later would prevail, but the enmity between unions and (law abiding and safety conscious) mine owners is much less than it was in the past. But again, the WV mine wars were almost 100 years ago, and we had the WWII and post war booms to help a lot of miners and their families to financial success. In the RSA, apartheid is still a fresh wound, and the financial situation for a lot of the working class isn't going so great despite the promises of a popularly elected government.

Just remember Kayback, when it all goes to hell, Zambia is practically begging for you to move there and build a plantation or tilapia farm!

This is one of the vehicles that has been patrolling the mine area since the shooting.

Looks awful similar to a 20mm loaded with a full belt of HEI to me.

It can be seen at 0:47 in the Al Jazeera video of the shooting, but the gun was covered up. They were worried about some 5.56mm fire? Imagine that thing opening up.

At 0:21 on the same video you can clearly see one person shooting at the cops with a pistol. The cops are still using rubber bullets at that stage. (our shotguns have all been reduced to less lethal loads in the form of M70 batton rounds only)

KBK

Edited by Kayback - 20 August 2012 at 9:24am