Scope?

funny enough, I just posted on the topic over at PBreview. Here's what I posted there- note, the discussion there was more aggressive and less polite than it is here, hence the beginning of the post.

90% of the people here have either never been introduced to formal debate, or have had their sense of reason surgically extracted from their brain. I didn't know that was an available procedure, but I can't think of an easier explanation. I'm going to try to kill this debate right here and now. My apologies for resurrecting a slightly dead thread, but I hate to see a good debate go to waste.

I'll present my arguement as logically as I can.

We'll start with a simple premise. That is;
1: There are a number of different kinds of paintball.

-This is clearly true. Among such are speedball, recball/woodsball, and scenario games.

Another premise:
2: Recball/woodsball and scenario share many carachteristics, including generally slower and more tactical play than speedball.

-Speedball is a very tacical game, but the tactical situation differs from woodsball. the fields are generally quite small, and seldom exceed the maximum range of a paintball- though not necessarily with any kind of effective shooting. I beleive 100 fet in length is close to standard. Woods/recball/scenarios, conversely, can take plce over many acres, with potentially hundreds of players.

I will agree, right now, that in speedball a scope or a red dot sight is impractical to the degree taht it can be considered useless.

I will discuss woods/rec/scenario games only, having granted the speedballers their little victory.

Another premise
3: In these games, play is often slower as a whole, because of the alrge play area, the ability to camouflage oneself by moving slowly, and because natural obstacles will often get in the way of shots that could be made easily in a clear field.

-I think that this can be accepted as true by everyone. There can be pitched firefights in woodsball, but it is generally the minority, rather than the majority of the elapsed time of the game. Much time will be spent quietly moving, or in small engagements between only a few players, where either a few shots result in an elimination, or one or the other aprty withdraws.

4: In a woodsball game, because of the dimensions of the playing field, you can often see 'in game' territory that is beyond your effective range of engagement. It may be so far away as to make it difficult or impossible to spot a eprson with the naked eye if they have used any measures of camouflage, or simply are fortuitous enough to blend in with the background.

-This is clearly true, if you've ever played in a big game.

5: Because of premise #4, an optical device which assists in spotting a eprson where it would be difficult to do so with the naked eye is beneficial.

6: If you can spot an opponent without them seeing you, or before they see you, you have an advantage over them.

#5 is obviously true, and logically means #6 has to be true. If you can see your opponent from a distance without him seeing you, you may be able to discern his numbers, formation, speed and direction of movement, and other information that will allow you to confront him in a time and palce of your choosing, rather than his, or rather than blundering into each other.

7: Given that; an optical device can enhace your ability to spot the enemy, and ; spotting the enemy without his knowing provides you witha  beneficial tactical situation, it then must be true that Having a magnifying optical device in a woodsball game may help you to place yourself in a tactically superior position

- A scope is a simple magnifying optical device, that can be mounted quickly and conveniently on your marker. Thus, a scope is clearly not useless in this context, and can be beneficial to a player adept at scouting or reconaissance.

Now, for aiming.

8: There exist markers and barrels that are capable of firing paintballs in flat, or accurately predictable trajectories

- Anyone who's ever shot a grouping of paintballs where they all hit clsoe to each other knows this. Given the right barrel and paint, a marker can fire its shots in an almost identical arc every time. Also, barrels such as the flatline will fire a ball in a flat trajectory for a considerable distance.

9: Given that the trajectory of a paintball can be predicted in a sufficiently accurate marker, aiming devices such as scopes or red dots can be calibrated such that their aiming point will rest over the point of impact of a paintball at any given distance (within range), with sufficient adjustment.

- This is true. You can sight in a scope so that at 100 feet, or whatever distance, your paint will always hit what you aim at.

10: Many people have sufficenet visual-spatial skills to see when a paintball falls short or flies high, and can extrapolate the necessary aiming adjustments needed to place a shot on target with an aiming device at a greater or lesser distance

- With experience, you will know that you have to aim your scope up, say, 6 inches to get an accurate shot with another 10 feet of disance, or aim down a foot when a target is 25 feet closer.

11: Given the right equipment and experience, a player with a properly calibrated aiming device can rpedictably place a paintball at any known distance accurately and quickly, as long as good sight picture and shooting habits are maintained

- This is simple marksmanship.

12: Because of the availability of cover, concealment, and camouflage, a player may often be able to wait until they have an optimal shot, in which case the potential exists to use the skills outlined in premises 10 and 11 to eliminate an opponent with just one or two shots, thus saving paint, and reducing the noise of multiple shots, and avoiding giving away his own position

- I know this sounds dangerously close to the evil S word, but nonetheless, a properly positioned player with the right equipment can make an elimination at a significant distance, say a hundred feet, where a player without any aiming devices may have to 'walk' their shots onto target, using up paint, potentially giving away their position, and possibly with the initial shots warning the target to get cover if his reflexes and position are sufficient.

THUS: A player with a scope or red dot sight, well calibrate, who are familiar with their marker can accurately place single or limited fire where others may have to 'walk' their shots, or aim down their barrel- which is inherently less precise, due to differences in eye relief, and both vertical and lateral positioning of the eyes relative to the barrel of the marker.

THUS: Combined with the previous optical benefits of, say, a scope, a player equipped with this may be able to fire shots more accurately through small gaps, or at greater distances, whereas players without this equipment may have to 'walk' their shots, trust to blind luck, or apply other 'trial and error' methods.

Scopes and sights are not the be all and end all by any means, but they have their purpose. If you want to conserve ammunition or concealment, or spot an enemy from a greater distance, they can be a big benefit, as long as they're properly sighted in.  For the record, I am a serving member in a military unit, and my service rifle uses a 3.4x optical sight, so I am somewhat biased towards their use- However, I also recognize that in close quarters battles or urban situations, they can be a hindrance- I've had to grit my teethand put up with the scope through exercises before where I would far rather have taken them off and used iron sights, so it goes both ways. Most importantly, though, I always try to pick my shots and conserve ammunition, which heavily influence my thinking.

Also, please don't try to use 'machinegunning' as a counter arguement- having been training on light and medium machine guns, I can tell you that we fire them in short (3-5) round bursts most of the time, and pick our shots.

If anyone cares to debate me on this, please refer to specifc ppremises, and be as logical in your arguements as I have. Thanks.

LOL, you obviously never read my woodsball tactics post.

When I write a post like taht, It ry to be utterly definitive, so that if it's possible for anyone to shoot me down, it's ebcause they're actualyl right and I'm actually wrong, and not because I left something out and worded it badly. My ego can't take that kind f abuse.

I tried a scope for scouting after watching how effective my son and his friends were with it.  I didn't like it.  However, I did prefer it to carrying binoculars, which I also tried years before.  IMO the scope had three advantages over binoculars. 

1.  It was readily available, not in a pouch or dangling around my neck.

2.  I could use it while keeping my marker readily available.

3.  I preferred having the additional weight on my marker as to carrying it somewhere else.

Additionally, everyone of my markers has some type of sight mounted on it.  (Two red dots and two fiber optics.)  I can aim to maximum trajectory without using them, but I prefer to use them if the situation allows.  I have lots of fun playing, do fairly well, and so far the Paintball Police have not come and revoked my playing privileges.

(Although, as many times as I've had to go back and change spelling in my posts, the Spelling Police may be coming after me to revoke my writing privileges.)

sneakysniper7:  You're not being mean, you're just giving your opinion (without being rude or inflammatory), which was the entire point of this thread.