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Tallen and DeTrev!! (Autococker Q)

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ekeboo View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 April 2007 at 1:40pm
So i have an old 98ish or so Autococker. Its high Pressure. Im wondering if i can get it to Low Pressure?? Possible?? Who makes the best stuff??


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tallen702 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:36pm
Yep! AKALMP, Shocktech, and Madman to name a few.

You can find most of them in review form here

AKA, Madman, and Shocktech all still make their valves.

You don't necessarily need a low-pressure chamber for the marker (a volumizer really) so long as you aren't firing a mini or micro 'cocker due to the fact that there is more than enough valve chamber room in a standard cocker to keep the flow up. You'll also need to change out your springs. AKA makes nice matched spring kits for your hammer and valve springs. Now, the fact that you have a pre-'99 means that there are some things that won't translate between your marker and a post '99 'cocker. The main things are bolts, and front blocks and banjo screws. You can change your back-block to a '99+ back block to use 2K bolts, and the front-block doesn't matter unless you're seriously desiring something like a light-weight block.

Now, that said, AKA also makes a nice heavy-weight hammer for lp-cockers. It's a brass hammer with a SS front which works really well for LP Mech 'cockers. The added weight helps the dwell factor giving you the lowest operating pressure possible. Not so good for high-cycle rates like you get with E-blades, but nice for mechs.

Hope that helps!

Oh, and get a good reg, AKA 2-liter or sidewinder. Good recharge rate and excellent LP characteristics.


EDIT:

You're going to need a valve tool as well.

Edited by tallen702 - 12 April 2007 at 3:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ekeboo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:50pm
Thanks Tallen, Im pretty sure its Pre 99 but not totally sure. Not quite the Cocker Wiz but hopefully getting smarter. Ill get a pics up soon. It does have a Palmer Stab, Micro Rock, and Quickswitch, I'll Get pics soon.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 3:53pm

Wut he said.

I wanna see pics, so hurry up! :P

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ekeboo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:15pm
Ok,Ok,Ok, Here they are well some.

pic of bolt says G-1??? Whats that mean



Front Block from Palmers gots it cheap!!!!



Main Pic



One last pic.


So could I buy the AKA Valve with their Pre-2000 Delrin Bolt??

Serial # 49581


Edited by ekeboo - 12 April 2007 at 4:16pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:20pm

That looks more like a 2k1ish P-Block. It's a nice 'cocker by the way. As for G-1, I'm not sure. Maybe a model number. Also, I notice a low pressure chamber on the front pneumatics. I don't know what the internals are, but it looks decently set up for LP...

I'm almost certain though that it's post 2k.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ekeboo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:25pm
Well D, I think the low pressure chamber is just a long screw but im probably wrong. But its not even close to the size they are now. Once again thanks for the Info. Ill take a crack at the valve as soon as i get the tool.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:28pm

It could be an extended screw, as I have seen those before.

Edit: After looking, I think you're right. Probably just an extended screw to make removal easier.



Edited by DeTrevni - 12 April 2007 at 4:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ekeboo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:30pm
So How hard is it getting a valve out???? Do i really need a tool?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:40pm
I'd suggest it. You could probably find a tool for $5 over PBN or something. I think you can use an allen wrench (I forget which size), but it's pretty difficult...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 4:49pm

Nice cocker.  Ive been meaning to ask both you guys for a while, not to jack the thread, but if a heavier hammer will put a great increase in kick.  Im looking at that AKA one as well as their valve and spring kits... but im wondering if the hammer would be worth it.  Now that im here, do we have all the "hardcore" cocker people on the forum here?

 

Wait, I found my answer from when I first started with cockers.

Originally posted by tallen tallen wrote:

Ahhhh 'cockers, us cocker guys are few and far between these days. Of course, you can still kick the crap out of people using a brand new ego with a mechanical 'cocker if you play well enough, I get the opportunity to do it on a weekly basis. Okay, enough reminiscing.

To up your cycle rate without going electro, you need to modify the front block components and the sear/hammer components as they (other than your trigger finger) determine how quickly your marker cycles. The biggest factor is the 3-way coupled with the hammer/sear. If you can get a good hammer with a FLAT lug (think stock hammer lug) and a smooth sear that will allow you to time the firing point on the trigger all the way to the front (think 1mm pull length) and then have a 3-way that can set the re-cock point to almost immediately after that, then you'll have made major leaps to upping your firing rate. After all, the less distance you have to pull the trigger, the better. It helps stop short-stroking and in turn, helps to eliminate double-feeds and chopped balls.

With the Hammer/Sear and 3-way out of the way, an adjustable LPR helps big time as well. Being able to up the pressure being put through the 3-way and into the ram gives you a faster cocking time (we're talking fractions of a second less, but it's still less) but it also means that if you DO have a ball only halfway into the chamber, you're definately going to chop it in half with higher ram-pressure. The other advantage to an adjustable lpr with a wide range of pressures is that you can adjust it so that you put less pressure through it and if it does happen to come up against a round only half-way dropped down the feed neck, it won't chop it, but will rest against it.

A new ram will help sometimes as well. If it is a shortened ram (like a palmer's) it won't have as much distance to travel. The LPR can help in this as well as you can adjust how far back the ram and back-block go via the pressure set with the lpr. Less distance needed to cock the marker and chamber a ball = faster firing rate.

Everything after those upgrades are pretty much semantics.

Now, my suggestions:
3-way
Palmer's quick switches are nice, but touchy, you loose out on some of the LPR low-pressure range features as it needs a higher-pressure to seat the o-rings properly. I have this on my marker right now, but the hissing gets annoying every once in a while. Also VERY touchy. It has a low margin for error. An easier 3-way that I've had great luck with is the old shocktech "bomb" 3-way. You'll wind up having to reverse your 3-way line (front to back and back to front) when you put it on, but it's a nice one. Very smooth and a wide operational range. Very forgiving.

LPR:
I've always liked my ANS Jackhammer II, but those are ancient by today's standards. Again, anything from Palmers will be good. So long as the pressure is regulated to stay the same even when firing fast, you'll be fine.

Ram: I've got a palmer's short-ram on my 'cocker. I like it. But again, it can be fickle. Most aftermarket rams are going to be the same though. So just shoot for the middle of the pack and you won't be dissapointed

Sear:
Everyone seems to love the Belsales roller-sear. I can take it or leave it. I used to have an AKALMP hardened "skeletonized" sear on my marker. I wish I still did. It was crisp and didn't have as much trigger slop as my belsales does. The belsales is nice and buttery-smooth on the pull, but if you're looking for speed, crisp is the way to go.

Hammer/Lug. A nice standard lug is best all around. If you plan on upgrading to an EBlade, you'll need to have a flat-bottomed lug anyway. It won't work with anything else. And again, you get that "crisp" feel from the trigger. You know you're reaching/reached the firing point that way.

The best upgrade (which has little to do with cycling rates) you can do, however, is to get a matched set of springs (AKALMP "AKA") makes some good ones. The matched spring tension will give you much more regulated valve operation which leads to more consistent chronos and better groupings.

Alright, that's all for this novella of a post.

-tallen



Edited by Yomillio - 12 April 2007 at 5:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:09pm
Well, it shouldn't increase kick, as it's not a blow back. the hammer doesn't do a thing but strike the valve. The backblock/ram is in charge of resetting everything. If there is an increase in kick, it'll be minimal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:31pm

okay.  I was just thinking, more moving wieght has to do something, but youre right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 5:33pm
There probably will be some added kick, but it's still gonna be a lot smoother than a blowback.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:22pm
No-kick really. I've found that if tuned properly, despite what weight hammer you have, 'cockers don't have any kick aside from what movement your hands put on it when pulling the trigger (Middle finger FTW!!!!)

As for the G-1, it's an OTP G-1 Bolt. It was one of the first to use o-rings around the channel hole to seal the bolt against the tube to create suction and prevent blow-back during rapid firing (back when Revvy's were high-end stuff)

That's definitely a 2K+ vert body, shocktech hinge frame, Dye Stickies, Palmer's stab, Palmer front block, and what looks like an ANS drop w/ on/off.

The pump arm and cocking rod are both stock, the ASA isn't from that body. You can tell from the mis-match of anno. You're missing your beaver tail. (get one before you whack yourself or loose your cocking rod)

IF you've got some extra cash to burn. I'd suggest an AKA pump arm (they're straight so there's no bending and thus, no lateral force placed on the bolt, cocking rod, or back block) change the ASA to a 11*, and learn to use a slider like a REAL MAN!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ekeboo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:49pm
So for a new bolt, If i should get one. I get one thats Post 2k. Right??? And ive been looking at the AKA for stuff. But i dont have money quite yet but after this weekend i should be good for cash. Also what springs are good??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

No-kick really. I've found that if tuned properly, despite what weight hammer you have, 'cockers don't have any kick aside from what movement your hands put on it when pulling the trigger (Middle finger FTW!!!!)
My 'cocker kicks pretty bad.  Thats why im a little concerned about it.  I still havent tried lowering my LPR yet, as I want to get in one full, good day of game before I start tinkering with my gun.  I know all too well that the minute I start taking my gun apart and am waiting on pieces and stuff to come in, I get the opportunity to play, but I have to use a backup because the main gun is in pieces.

That's definitely a 2K+ vert body, shocktech hinge frame, Dye Stickies, Palmer's stab, Palmer front block, and what looks like an ANS drop w/ on/off.
Im pretty sure that it isnt a shocktech hinge, it looks like a basic pre-'05 WGP hinge.  Its the one that came on the '04 ProStocks, and im sure its been put on others.  Also, its a system x on/off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2007 at 11:42pm
hmmm, you may be right about the frame, I know you're right about the on/off.

Anywho. As for the bolt question that ekeboo's got, the p-block you have may make it a little tougher to use a '00+ bolt. My suggestion would be to see if anyone else at your field, or any of your friends have a bolt you can try to fit in. It may take pre-99 bolts due to the fact that the p-block brings the pin in closer. I really can't tell just by looking.

As for recoil Yomillo, the LPR is the biggest contributing factor. Most people crank it way-high thinking that the faster the back block snaps back, the better. Really, you want to hold the trigger with the marker de-cocked. Then slowly turn up the LPR until it pushes the block back to the point that the marker cocks when you release the trigger. Then give it a quarter-turn for good measure (and to ensure that you've got enough re-charge for those rapid-fire situations). Easiest thing to tune on a 'cocker.

Wow, this place is getting big on 'cockers lately! I'm so proud!!!!

Oh, and I'm going to go ahead and film myself doing some simple maintenance and timing to help those who care for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ekeboo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2007 at 12:20pm
Oh tallen i have always wanted an autococker, thing of beauty. Anyways on the bolt question. I found a person with an 02 or 03 vert cocker. The bolts were different. The pin hole was way off like by half an inch. So this makes it pretty sure that its a pre 99 right??

P.S. would really appreciate the Vid!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daniero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2007 at 1:16pm
Yeah, a vid would be great!

No thread jacking, I just finished putting together my 'cocker after checking if the 3 way orings were ok, I'll take some time on sunday to sweetspot the regulators. Any advice on sweetspotting the regulators? I need to set both inline and lpr...
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