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Tical3.0 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 January 2011 at 10:40am
Quote  VATICAN CITY (Reuters) – God's mind was behind complex scientific theories such as the Big Bang, and Christians should reject the idea that the universe came into being by accident, Pope Benedict said on Thursday.

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St Peter's Basilica on the feast day.

While the pope has spoken before about evolution, he has rarely delved back in time to discuss specific concepts such as the Big Bang, which scientists believe led to the formation of the universe some 13.7 billion years ago.

Researchers at CERN, the nuclear research center in Geneva, have been smashing protons together at near the speed of light to simulate conditions that they believe brought into existence the primordial universe from which stars, planets and life on earth -- and perhaps elsewhere -- eventually emerged.

Some atheists say science can prove that God does not exist, but Benedict said that some scientific theories were "mind limiting" because "they only arrive at a certain point ... and do not manage to explain the ultimate sense of reality ..."

He said scientific theories on the origin and development of the universe and humans, while not in conflict with faith, left many questions unanswered.

"In the beauty of the world, in its mystery, in its greatness and in its rationality ... we can only let ourselves be guided toward God, creator of heaven and earth," he said.

Benedict and his predecessor John Paul have been trying to shed the Church's image of being anti-science, a label that stuck when it condemned Galileo for teaching that the earth revolves around the sun, challenging the words of the Bible.

Galileo was rehabilitated and the Church now also accepts evolution as a scientific theory and sees no reason why God could not have used a natural evolutionary process in the forming of the human species.

The Catholic Church no longer teaches creationism -- the belief that God created the world in six days as described in the Bible -- and says that the account in the book of Genesis is an allegory for the way God created the world.

But it objects to using evolution to back an atheist philosophy that denies God's existence or any divine role in creation. It also objects to using Genesis as a scientific text.

(Editing by Tim Pearce) 



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Does that mean the Catholic Church will teach (er, preach) Intelligent Design now?

Edited by StormyKnight - 06 January 2011 at 10:46am
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Lies.

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If you go by science as we know it now, energy can neither be created nor destroyed--- so where did the energy, let alone matter, of the big bang come from?


Yes, the counterpoint some of you will state would be "Where did God come from?", but alas, if you give credence to matter and energy just *poof* existing, you have to give the same credence to a higher power possibly just *poof* existing.

THE God, a god, or a higher power... not that far out of the realm of possibility if you truly think about it. There is not enough proof (heck, there is NO proof) one way or the other.



Honestly, life is far too complex to have "just happened" as perfectly as it has without some sort of push, in my eyes.   I've always favored intelligent design over all other theories. It might not be a being (though I choose to be a Catholic) but I do think it's SOMETHING.


Edited by Linus - 06 January 2011 at 7:24pm

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The Catholic church is rapidly catching up to liberal Evangelicals.
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Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Yes, the counterpoint some of you will state would be "Where did God come from?", but alas, if you give credence to matter and energy just *poof* existing, you have to give the same credence to a higher power possibly just *poof* existing.
While both of those scenarios should be viewed with equal likelihood of happening; today, we have proof of the existence of matter and energy. We do not have proof of the existence of god.

If you assert the existence of something, you must provide proof to support it, not declare you are right because no one else can prove it doesn't exist. That's equivalent to me saying Sneecherz (something I just made up) exist in the Amazon. It's quite possible that sneecherz could exist - doesn't make it very likely.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Honestly, life is far too complex to have "just happened" as perfectly as it has without some sort of push, in my eyes.
Life is a long long ways away from being perfect. And science has found a push - natural selection.

Edit: I'm sure this post comes off as being condescending, but it wasn't intended to be. Just throwing in my $.02


Edited by __sneaky__ - 07 January 2011 at 6:12am
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Yes, proof of the existence of matter: Not where it came from or how it started.


We have proof of life on earth. We don't have proof of current life on other planets: yet we do know what it "takes" to make life sustainable, and we know there are planets with the same set of circumstances as earth, so current life on other planets is not that, forgive the pun, alien of a theory.




Trust me, anyone involved in medicine or biology will agree: The body (human or animal) is damn near perfect in design with it's complexity. It's simply amazing how everything just works, and works well the vast majority of the time.

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Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Trust me, anyone involved in medicine or biology will agree: The body (human or animal) is damn near perfect in design with it's complexity. It's simply amazing how everything just works, and works well the vast majority of the time.

And yet a 'made in his image' concept doesn't explain the existence of the human appendix, coccyx (tailbone), wisdom teeth, ear muscles, 'goosebumps' that stand on end fur/hair that we no longer have and that in the past would have served the same function as 'puffing up' does in animals, and DNA remnants of vestigial genes that no longer serve a purpose. The human body has a number of genetic 'leftovers' that no longer serve a purpose, but that also don't really serve as maladaptive traits that would result in their own elimination.

The initial article is interesting- I'd term it a 'theory of God', that there is some metaphysical... something underlying our current concepts of science. It's something we can't prove, and it is something we can disprove layer by layer as we unlock each new level of complexity and causality. I don't accept the theory of God as likely, but it's not automatically invalid on its face. I won't presume to say I know one way or another whether there's some deity figure or not, though I consider it unlikely.

Science and religion don't need to be mutually exclusive, as long as the latter cedes to the former when it makes good sense. It's nice to see the Catholic church finally accepting that.
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Although it is the catholic church and therefore the Bible we are dealing with here. I see this as the pope saying "Well if evolution is proven then God did evolution". More on the concept of a higher power rather than debunking evolution or the scriptural references like "Created in his image". An oversight on his part but a different argument.

I've always thought, If I was created in the image of god by his omniscient self then why do I sometimes bite the inside of my own mouth?
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Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:



I've always thought, If I was created in the image of god by his omniscient self then why do I sometimes bite the inside of my own mouth?

'Tis God's will my son.
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"Created in God's image" is a statement of free will, not physical design IMO. (Insert philosophical debate on free will here)

I believe in God, and I believe in science. I just happen to think a Higher Power was behind it all. I could be right or wrong, but we'll likely never know so I don't see any reason argue for either side. It's like a dog chasing his own tail, we'll never get anywhere.

I do, however, believe that if religion counteracts empirical evidence, then something is wrong with your beliefs. Because if God created nature and all her rules, why would he contradict those designs ?
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Close minded thinking is this: "We don't have the answer, so god did it."
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Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:


Trust me, anyone involved in medicine or biology will agree: The body (human or animal) is damn near perfect in design with it's complexity. It's simply amazing how everything just works, and works well the vast majority of the time.

No, odds are they won't.

Why are our sinuses designed to drain from the top?  Why do so many people have back problems?  These are examples of systems which evolved very neatly but don't work so well in humans because our ancestors didn't walk on their hind legs.  

More interesting, however, are systems with wildly apparent flaws. A prime example is the eye, which actually has blood vessels on the surface of the retina.  Thats like putting all the wiring for a camera in front of the aperture. It makes no sense to design the eye that way, but it makes perfect sense for an eye to evolve that way.

Richard Dawkins uses that example and many others in "The Greatest Show on Earth", which, despite my distaste for some of his agenda, is a fantastic book and everyone should read it. 
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Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Close minded thinking is this: "We don't have the answer, so god did it."


Close-minded thinking is "You don't believe the same thing I do, therefore your wrong."
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Originally posted by underground underground wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Close minded thinking is this: "We don't have the answer, so god did it."


Close-minded thinking is "You don't believe the same thing I do, therefore your wrong."
 
He has you there choop.


Edited by ammolord - 07 January 2011 at 8:36pm
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Originally posted by ammolord ammolord wrote:

Originally posted by underground underground wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Close minded thinking is this: "We don't have the answer, so god did it."


Close-minded thinking is "You don't believe the same thing I do, therefore your wrong."
 
He has you there choop.

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He really doesn't though. He's right, but he hasn't said anything of relevance to what Choop said. Choop pointed out a giant flaw in how some religious people reason (and the close-mindedness that comes with that thinking); underground posted something that's true, but irrelevant to Choop's criticism. 
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