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The same purpose as rifleing.....

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    Posted: 01 December 2005 at 1:17am

... But using a different method. Rifling doesn't work because the rifling only spins the shell and not the liquid fill, right? Kindof like a glass of water. Spin the glass and the water doesn't move. You may also notice that it takes very, very little side to side or circular movement to get the water spinning very fast. My idea would be kindof like the Flatline only it would produce the spiraling type spin that rifling would attempt to get. Get it? The only problem would be keeping the paintball facing the same direction so that the spinning would be even, which is what I'm working on. Also, I mentioned the Flatline above. It wouldn't really be like the Flatline, it would just use the method of moving the whole paintball to produce spin, thats all. It would also, hopefully, be more accurate then the Flatline. Of course, improving accuracy is the whole point of rifling so I would hope so.

The one and only idea that I have already thought of to keep the paintball facing the same direction would be to change the shape of it, but I have read here that bullet shaped paintballs is not something to mention, so I guess I wont. Although, a short explenation as to why it shouldn't be mentioned would be great. And feel free to critisize my idea if you see any flaws. I'm sure there are a couple there.



Edited by stealthy2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2005 at 1:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stealthy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2005 at 10:52am
Ok, go get a cup of water. It may help to see if it has ice in it. Now, pretend that the bottom of the cup is the front of the paintball. I know that the "front" probably wouldn't stay the front the whole way down the barrel, just pretend it would. Ok, not spin the cup like the rifling on the barrel would spin it. Don't move the cup in any direction except for down because that would be the direction it would move if it was a paintball going down a rifled barrel. Now look at the ice water in the cup as its spinning. Isn't moving much is it? Thats why rifling doesn't work. Rifling only spins the shell, not the liquid fill, and the shell doesn't have enough mass for rifling to have much, if any, effect on it. Now, don't pour that glass of water out yet. Take the same glass of water. Now, start to move the glass in a circular motion, but not spinning it. Just by moving it slowly and for not very long you can get the ice water to spin very fast. The liquid core of a paintball is what would need to spin for the idea behind rifling to work. This would get the liquid core spinning. Of course paintball fill is thicker, so it might not spin as much. But as fast as you can get water spinning with as little of force as you can, I wouldn't doubt that you can get a paintball spinning fast enough to have possitive effects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2005 at 4:35pm
As if curves off in the direction of the spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2005 at 7:10pm

its not that the liquid paint isnt moving, though that is a problem. the thing is, even if you did get your barrel to work, would be the centrifugal forces. all paintballs vary in size, weight, and density. the smallest air bubble in a paintball would cause something spinning at those kinds of speeds to lose control. i guess the smartest thing to do to increase accuracy and range would be to angle your shots. its what i do.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _TT_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2005 at 7:27pm
It would hook so sharp to the side, what would be the point?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sneaky_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2005 at 7:49pm
if you get it to go side to side around in the barrel, after it leaves the barrel, it will not continue to stay on that straight path, it will fly off in the direction it was going when it leaves the barrel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2005 at 5:01pm
Ive never understood why this myth of paintballs not spinning is so widely believed.

Go get a paintball, spin it on your desk. It spins just fine.

The flatline spins the paint, and obviously the flatline works doesnt it?

Besides, your idea contradicts itself, if rifling cannot spin a paintball, how does your idea of spinning a paintball work?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W-R-A-I-T-H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2005 at 6:23pm

Originally posted by stealthy2 stealthy2 wrote:

Ok, go get a cup of water. It may help to see if it has ice in it. Now, pretend that the bottom of the cup is the front of the paintball. I know that the "front" probably wouldn't stay the front the whole way down the barrel, just pretend it would. Ok, not spin the cup like the rifling on the barrel would spin it. Don't move the cup in any direction except for down because that would be the direction it would move if it was a paintball going down a rifled barrel. Now look at the ice water in the cup as its spinning. Isn't moving much is it? Thats why rifling doesn't work. Rifling only spins the shell, not the liquid fill, and the shell doesn't have enough mass for rifling to have much, if any, effect on it. Now, don't pour that glass of water out yet. Take the same glass of water. Now, start to move the glass in a circular motion, but not spinning it. Just by moving it slowly and for not very long you can get the ice water to spin very fast. The liquid core of a paintball is what would need to spin for the idea behind rifling to work. This would get the liquid core spinning. Of course paintball fill is thicker, so it might not spin as much. But as fast as you can get water spinning with as little of force as you can, I wouldn't doubt that you can get a paintball spinning fast enough to have possitive effects.

Yeah, but paint inside of a paintball (especially higher grade paintballs) is thicker than water which would give it the tendency to cling to the spinning shell.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doublecross Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2005 at 9:00pm
the fact is, that theres noting you...or anyone can do to make a paintball more accurate. Its a ball, more then that, its a ball with little weight moving at great speeds. Because the paintball is well...a ball, it will never be accurate as say, a bullit, because the bullit is heavy and is areodynamic, as a paintball, is neather.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stealthy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2005 at 10:15pm
Although I have an arguement for practically every one of you besides DeTrevni, I do not wish to argue about it. I belive that DeTrevnis post pretty much sums it all up, and that is why there is no point in arguing about any of the other theories or arguments. Thank you for sharing your opinions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sneaky_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2005 at 10:53pm
well think about it, when ever it leaves the barrel, after it has been riding around in circles in the barrel, after it leaves the barrel, there is no barrier to keep it goin on that coarse, motion does not have memory, it goes where it is sent, it will not keep going in that spirall pattern, it will just fly off where it was headed when it left the barrel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2005 at 11:33am
I agree with Enos, a paintball spins perfectly fine (I spin mine on a glass desk even).

DeTrevni, consider these points:
  • If there is air in a paintball (which there often is) it will occupy the space where there is no liquid (which makes it an air bubble).
  • Inertia is a resistance to change in motion (acceleration, or negative acceleration).
  • The mass of a material (or density) determines it's inertia with heavy materials having a greater inertia than lighter materials
  • Liquid is denser (and heavier than air) therefore it has a higher inertia than the air.
  • Centrifugal force (caused by spinning a material) causes denser materials to move further outward than the lighter materials (this is how a centriruge works).
  • Therefore, the forward acceleration will cause the liquid to settle towards the back of the paintball, while the spinning will pull the liquid out to the sides.  This leaves only one spot for the air to exist- the front, dead center.
A speherical object can benefit from rifling.  The first rifled barrels fired the classic ball.  This showed enough promise to make rifled barrels highly sought after by sharpshooters.  If this first stage didn't show enough promise, it would've been abandoned (kinda like how the mass paintball community has given up on them).

However, the problem with paintball is due to the fact that paintballs are not perfect spheres (at least 99% of the time), and they all have a seam (some considerably worse than others), that varies in position from shot to shot.

What I'm trying to find out is how perfect do the balls need to be, to benefit from rifling.  For example with well-matched, minimally seamed, very well rounded, paint, in a rifled barrel, what kind of improvement you could get.  The problem I have is that the best rounded, and minimally seamed paint I've come across is Evil and it's consistantly too small for my armson.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2005 at 12:19pm
Question; how hard would it be for a paint manufacturer to produce paint with thin bits of shell between the two halves, cutting the fill in half? This would forcethe fill to spin along with the paint, and could allow rifled barrels to work...

UV Halo's absolutely correct- the British army in the early 1800s employed the first Rifle regiments; dedicated skirmisher sthat would advance ahead of the main body working in skirmish pairs and engage the enemy with long range shots. Their rifles were pretty accurate at over two hundred yards' disance, while a musket was a lucky shota t a quarter that- hence mass voley fire. There is a precedent for spherical ammunition being fired more accurately from a rifled barrel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stealthy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2005 at 1:56pm

Spherical ammunition, yes, but not paintballs. They are not near as round as most mustket balls where. They are deffinatly not as size consistant as musket balls. They where not the same material, which, yes, does make a difference. Their weight was destributed A LOT more evenly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evanh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2005 at 7:24pm
If you really wanted to make the paintball spin more useful. To make the liquid inside spin up just as fast as the shell you would have to ad in a bafle of a sort. I.E make to halves with a wall in between so you have two half spheres then put them together and wa la. you would have a paintball that accelerates the paint inside at the same speed as the shell. And Im spent. And I think he is thinking of a cork screw spiral to spin the paint. like a spiral flatline????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stealthy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2005 at 8:48pm
Kindof. More of a corkscrew, but modified. It would have to be tuned just right so that it would spin and not slosh. The more thought I put into it the more I don't think it would work as I had hoped. It would corkscrew just enough to get it spinning then it would be streight for just a little bit so that it would leave the barrel spinning, but going streight.

Edited by stealthy2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2005 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Evanh Evanh wrote:

If you really wanted to make the paintball spin more useful. To make the liquid inside spin up just as fast as the shell you would have to ad in a bafle of a sort. I.E make to halves with a wall in between so you have two half spheres then put them together and wa la. you would have a paintball that accelerates the paint inside at the same speed as the shell. And Im spent. And I think he is thinking of a cork screw spiral to spin the paint. like a spiral flatline????


I suppose it escaped your notice, but that's exactly what I suggested several posts ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stealthy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2005 at 12:32am
I was thinking about that but I don't think it would work very well. First of all, it would probably be more expincive to make them that way. Secondly, it would just add more and more strength to the paintball and they would become hard to break. It might work toward a more accurate shot, but its worthless if it doesn't break.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 December 2005 at 1:31am
You guys are forgetting something- a paintball spins perfectly fine.  The liquid is thick enough to spin with the shell.  It may take a fraction of a second to get up to speed but, then, you could argue that as the shell slows down due to friction with the air, the paint will take that same fraction of second longer to slow down.   In any case, a simple hand spin will last in excess of three seconds on a glass table which has more friction than if the paintball were spinning in air.  How often does a paintball fly for three seconds?  Even a flatline doesn't have that much hang time when fired level or with a slight inclination.
  I maintain that the main reason why it doesn't significantly improve things in paintball are because paintballs are not uniformally spherical enough, and they have seams.

Stealthy2.  Have you seen period musket balls?  Umm, I'd say that your average name brand balls are about the same quality if not better than those old balls in terms of roundness.  Remember, they were cast by hand, before there were machines.  But, they had their weight going for them.


Edited by UV Halo
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