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Badsmitty 
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 Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:48pm |
 untouchable555 wrote:
What is with everywon hating on the war. So many people have died to protect your all of your rights and all you can say is how wrong war is? OS that was perfectly said. I am 250% for the war. |
Only 250%? Not 300%? Are you sure that you support the troops fully? Personally I love the war. I think that we should have a lot more wars. At least a dozen each and every day. I figure that the more wars we have, the more soldiers who will die to protect all of my rights.
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A-5master08
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Posted: 23 March 2005 at 11:04pm |
i respect all the U.S. soldiers but some of the soldiers have given the army a black eye for what they did to the prisoners in Iraq and yes they should be punished for wut they did but that does not make all them bad people. We should give them respect for fighting for out country. Theres nothing we can do to stop it now so we should either support or shut the **edit** up.
Edited by A-5master08
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 7:31am |
goodsmitty wrote:
rednekk98 wrote:
Also, for those of you opposed to the war, are you still protesting our reasons for invading or our continued occupation? Do you want immediate troop withdrawl? [see below>
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Below is my reasoning for protesting. It was my speech on Saturday after we read all 1513 names of the American Soldiers dead.
Hello. My name is Dave Smith. One year ago I was an army Captain ending a successful career. In the year since my discharge I have tried to convince many people of the mistakes we made in this war, and pointing out some of its shadier dealings. I have two messages today, one for the supporters of this war, and one for the protestors. I hope you will find that I am respectful of both, as I believe that everyone is entitled their opinion.
I don’t think that anyone would argue that Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who had a much-deserved date with justice. He should be tried and punished for his crimes. But I ask anyone who agrees with this war to listen as 1500 names of dead soldiers are read aloud, and ask themselves if we really reserved war as the last option. I spoke last month with my best friend from the army, whom I served with as Lieutenants in Bosnia in 1996. He was a company commander in Iraq and just came home this past year. He told me that of his group of seven buddies from Virginia Military Institute, three are gone. Three of his six closest classmates are all dead. Ask him if we exhausted every political avenue, or if we rushed to war on patriotism and nationalistic zeal. I think that anyone’s answer to that question is a matter of perspective from how close you are to the tragedy.
Every single one of those names read aloud today is symbolic of one irreversibly shattered family. Some of them were true heroes who died in valor. Some were patriots like Pat Tillman who gave up his NFL contract to do his duty for his county. Most only wanted the best college tuition benefits available to them. All of them are symbols of tragedy.
I hope that most of you here today have had more success than I have in changing people’s views of the war. Mine has been limited. I do not know at what point that this war outrages the majority of the public, whether it is 10,000 dead, 10 years, or $500 billion. Hopefully it will be successful and we will not be here next year. Either way, I believe that to leave Iraq without trying to stabilize it and repair the damage we have inflicted would be a grievous harm. However, I believe that the worst thing the American public can do to our soldiers and the Iraqi people is to idly stand by and not hold our government accountable to end this war as quickly as possible. While yellow ribbons are nice, supporting the troops means writing letters, marching, and protesting if necessary. One of the most effective lies in this country is that protesting the war means protesting the soldiers or the military. It is up to us to show our families and our coworkers that the difference between these two concepts is akin to the difference between protesting the death penalty and protesting justice.
In closing, I hope that this time next year we don’t need to protest because the war is over. But until that day comes, let us tirelessly continue to march as the vanguard of truth and democracy. |
Dave,
I've seen you post this and others like it for some time now. Pehaps our government moved to fast, perhaps it moved to slow, history will tell in the end. What I have yet to see is how you think we should pull out, and more importantly, what we should leave behind.
Pointing out what you believe to be a problem isn't enough. If your going to, have a solution as well.
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 9:47am |
SR_Crewchief wrote:
goodsmitty wrote:
rednekk98 wrote:
Also, for those of you opposed to the war, are you still protesting our reasons for invading or our continued occupation? Do you want immediate troop withdrawl? [see below>
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Below is my reasoning for protesting. It was my speech on Saturday after we read all 1513 names of the American Soldiers dead.
Hello. My name is Dave Smith. One year ago I was an army Captain ending a successful career. In the year since my discharge I have tried to convince many people of the mistakes we made in this war, and pointing out some of its shadier dealings. I have two messages today, one for the supporters of this war, and one for the protestors. I hope you will find that I am respectful of both, as I believe that everyone is entitled their opinion.
I don’t think that anyone would argue that Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who had a much-deserved date with justice. He should be tried and punished for his crimes. But I ask anyone who agrees with this war to listen as 1500 names of dead soldiers are read aloud, and ask themselves if we really reserved war as the last option. I spoke last month with my best friend from the army, whom I served with as Lieutenants in Bosnia in 1996. He was a company commander in Iraq and just came home this past year. He told me that of his group of seven buddies from Virginia Military Institute, three are gone. Three of his six closest classmates are all dead. Ask him if we exhausted every political avenue, or if we rushed to war on patriotism and nationalistic zeal. I think that anyone’s answer to that question is a matter of perspective from how close you are to the tragedy.
Every single one of those names read aloud today is symbolic of one irreversibly shattered family. Some of them were true heroes who died in valor. Some were patriots like Pat Tillman who gave up his NFL contract to do his duty for his county. Most only wanted the best college tuition benefits available to them. All of them are symbols of tragedy.
I hope that most of you here today have had more success than I have in changing people’s views of the war. Mine has been limited. I do not know at what point that this war outrages the majority of the public, whether it is 10,000 dead, 10 years, or $500 billion. Hopefully it will be successful and we will not be here next year. Either way, I believe that to leave Iraq without trying to stabilize it and repair the damage we have inflicted would be a grievous harm. However, I believe that the worst thing the American public can do to our soldiers and the Iraqi people is to idly stand by and not hold our government accountable to end this war as quickly as possible. While yellow ribbons are nice, supporting the troops means writing letters, marching, and protesting if necessary. One of the most effective lies in this country is that protesting the war means protesting the soldiers or the military. It is up to us to show our families and our coworkers that the difference between these two concepts is akin to the difference between protesting the death penalty and protesting justice.
In closing, I hope that this time next year we don’t need to protest because the war is over. But until that day comes, let us tirelessly continue to march as the vanguard of truth and democracy.
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Dave,
I've seen you post this and others like it for some time now. Pehaps our government moved to fast, perhaps it moved to slow, history will tell in the end. What I have yet to see is how you think we should pull out, and more importantly, what we should leave behind.
Pointing out what you believe to be a problem isn't enough. If your going to, have a solution as well. |
As I am not on the ground I cannot build a plan, but I can say this, if what you are doing hasn't worked for the first two years, then try something else. I believe that we do not have enough troops on the ground to secure Iraq, so we had better double our troop strength, or whatever is necessary to get the job done. If that means a draft, then so be it. Better to go through that than piddle away another 10,000 soldiers and not fix our mess, but avoid the public outrage of a draft. We either get it done or pull out.
The only people who would not suffer from ten more years of the same is the oil companies. Because 1) they are not soldiers getting killed, and 2) they are not Iraqi people without electricity. And as I believe that Halliburton and the oil companies are running the war and calling every shot, we will have ten more years of the same. And I will be protesting every March 20th.
Edited by goodsmitty
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty
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MT. Vigilante
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 1:45pm |
goodsmitty wrote:
MT. Vigilante wrote:
goodsmitty wrote:
MT. Vigilante wrote:
goodsmitty wrote:
MT. Vigilante wrote:
The thing that none of you so called “Anti-War” people realize, is that we “Pro-War” people (as you call us) as well as everyone in the military, are all anti – war, do you think that we want war! Do you think that we want our fathers, sons, and daughters to go over there and fight and die! No, we don’t! The difference between us and you is the fact that we know that it does not take two men to start a war, only one. And we know that sometimes you have to go and fight and die so that others may live in a free country. My family knows this all to well, we have had at least one family member from every generation fight for this country in every war this country has been in, from the Revolutionary war on up to the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq, and my father is over there right now fighting so you people can call him a baby killer and his superiors Nazis. You all take this for granite, and you need to be more appreciative of the freedoms that you have and more thankful to those who have given them to you. So before you go and call someone a Nazi, think about all those Marines, Soldiers, Seamen, and Airmen who have died to give you the right to say that.
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Who do you want me to thank-myself or my brother badsmitty?
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First of all, I would like to thank you and your brother for serving your country, you have done what few people in this country are willing to do. Next, I would like to clarify that my comment above was not directed towards you or anyone like you because since you are in the service you are probably not going to call U.S. troops “Nazis” or “baby killers”, also, my comments were not directed towards people who are against the war, only towards people who hate U.S. troops, I believe that regardless of what your political views are towards the war you should always support our troops. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and once again, thank you for serving your country.
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Thank you for the clarification. But in all seriousness, wouldn't you agree that the overwhelming majority of protesters are against the war, but support the military? I haven't seen or heard of a single incident of troops being spat upon.
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Yes I agree that most do support the troops, however, there is a large group of protesters that do hate the troops ( they are certainly not the majority though), I have even encountered some here in Montana, but of course they are not from this state originally, and I think that you will agree with me that they do not deserve to live in this country for the reason that since they hate our troops they are no better than those we are fighting.
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That is interesting. I live in Ohio (red state) so the support is overwhelmingly for the soldiers. I was curious though, whether the more liberal blue states acted differently. Montana doesn't strike me as being a liberal state.
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Montana is very conservative, as am I, all those people who hate the troops ( which is a very small minority here in Montana) are not from Montana, most of them are from California.
Also, although Montana is very conservative, Montanans are much more Independent in there thinking than many people outside the state think. Basically, we don’t care about political parties, only what the person who is running for office is like, what his or her stand is on certain issues. In short, we don’t blindly follow the Republican party, for example; Bush won in Montana because we think he is doing a good job, but Brian Swietzer, a Democrat, won our Gubernatorial race. Also, the vast majority of Montanans support the war, but that same group of people does not like Bush’s Social Security plan.
Sorry for the little Government lesson, I just find Montana politics very interesting and I thought you might to.
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MT. Vigilante
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 1:53pm |
BARREL BREAK wrote:
MT. Vigilante wrote:
BARREL BREAK wrote:
War on terror, what a joke... |
<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>How is it a joke! Unless you are some kind of sick minded person who thinks that the deaths of over 3,000 American citizens in an unprovoked attack is funny! If that is the case, then why are you living in this country!? I was over there on 9/11, I have friends who lost relatives in the pentagon attack, so don’t go telling me the war on terror is a joke!
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Yes, tragic events. I'm not taking away from that, but what I am doing is saying that the Bush administration "War on terror" Is a joke. Wow, lets piss them off even more, invade countries for no good reason, get rid of civil rights, and lose any standing we had in the world, and for what? For nothing. |
You have to realize something, the reason we invaded Iraq is not the same reason we invaded Afghanistan. The war on Terror is the hunt for Osama Bin Laden and the War in Afghanistan, not the war in Iraq, we invaded Afghanistan because of 9/11, we invaded Iraq because we thought Sadam had weapons of mass destruction, do you see the difference.
What I am trying to say is that whether you support the war in Iraq or not is your decision and I don’t care, but every American should support the War on Terror because it is the direct result of 9/11 and the War in Iraq is not.
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 2:07pm |
MT. Vigilante wrote:
goodsmitty wrote:
MT. Vigilante wrote:
goodsmitty wrote:
MT. Vigilante wrote:
goodsmitty wrote:
MT. Vigilante wrote:
The thing that none of you so called “Anti-War” people realize, is that we “Pro-War” people (as you call us) as well as everyone in the military, are all anti – war, do you think that we want war! Do you think that we want our fathers, sons, and daughters to go over there and fight and die! No, we don’t! The difference between us and you is the fact that we know that it does not take two men to start a war, only one. And we know that sometimes you have to go and fight and die so that others may live in a free country. My family knows this all to well, we have had at least one family member from every generation fight for this country in every war this country has been in, from the Revolutionary war on up to the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq, and my father is over there right now fighting so you people can call him a baby killer and his superiors Nazis. You all take this for granite, and you need to be more appreciative of the freedoms that you have and more thankful to those who have given them to you. So before you go and call someone a Nazi, think about all those Marines, Soldiers, Seamen, and Airmen who have died to give you the right to say that.
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Who do you want me to thank-myself or my brother badsmitty?
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First of all, I would like to thank you and your brother for serving your country, you have done what few people in this country are willing to do. Next, I would like to clarify that my comment above was not directed towards you or anyone like you because since you are in the service you are probably not going to call U.S. troops “Nazis” or “baby killers”, also, my comments were not directed towards people who are against the war, only towards people who hate U.S. troops, I believe that regardless of what your political views are towards the war you should always support our troops. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and once again, thank you for serving your country.
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Thank you for the clarification. But in all seriousness, wouldn't you agree that the overwhelming majority of protesters are against the war, but support the military? I haven't seen or heard of a single incident of troops being spat upon.
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Yes I agree that most do support the troops, however, there is a large group of protesters that do hate the troops ( they are certainly not the majority though), I have even encountered some here in Montana, but of course they are not from this state originally, and I think that you will agree with me that they do not deserve to live in this country for the reason that since they hate our troops they are no better than those we are fighting.
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That is interesting. I live in Ohio (red state) so the support is overwhelmingly for the soldiers. I was curious though, whether the more liberal blue states acted differently. Montana doesn't strike me as being a liberal state.
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Montana is very conservative, as am I, all those people who hate the troops ( which is a very small minority here in Montana) are not from Montana, most of them are from California.
Also, although Montana is very conservative, Montanans are much more Independent in there thinking than many people outside the state think. Basically, we don’t care about political parties, only what the person who is running for office is like, what his or her stand is on certain issues. In short, we don’t blindly follow the Republican party, for example; Bush won in Montana because we think he is doing a good job, but Brian Swietzer, a Democrat, won our Gubernatorial race. Also, the vast majority of Montanans support the war, but that same group of people does not like Bush’s Social Security plan.
Sorry for the little Government lesson, I just find Montana politics very interesting and I thought you might to.
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From your message, it sounds like Montana is the same as the rest of the country, and the "soldier haters" are a very small minority. This is a very important point, because much of the conservative press is trying to portray any who protest the war as "soldier haters."
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty
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Hades
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 2:23pm |
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Since when did California become soldier haters? There are tons of Military bases, plants, ports, and the works are here in Cali. I would venture to say that a good portion of the California economy is supported by the military. I see a whole lot of the yellow ribbons magnetted to cars and tied around trees. Like goodsmitty, stated, it is the press that makes the protesters into soldier haters, not the protesters themselves. My brother lives in Berkeley and I have yet to hear him tell me that he has met someone that hates soldiers.
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 3:32pm |
Hades wrote:
Since when did California become soldier haters? There are tons of Military bases, plants, ports, and the works are here in Cali. I would venture to say that a good portion of the California economy is supported by the military. I see a whole lot of the yellow ribbons magnetted to cars and tied around trees. Like goodsmitty, stated, it is the press that makes the protesters into soldier haters, not the protesters themselves. My brother lives in Berkeley and I have yet to hear him tell me that he has met someone that hates soldiers. |
Thank you. I will bet that for every soldier hater there is a matching Fascist on the other side. The problem is, that it is those two groups that get all of the press.
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 5:09pm |
Whoa! Calm down everybody, you misinterpreted my message, I was not saying that everybody in Cali. is a soldier hater and I know that they aren’t, I lived there for a few years and was born there while my father was in the Marine Corp, when I said that the soldier haters here in Montana were from California I was serious, they told me themselves, and by stating this fact I was simply trying to express the fact that the people of Montana do not hate the soldiers, and I was not saying that the people of California do.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
And Goodsmitty, I don’t think that the conservative media is trying to paint all the war protesters as being soldier haters, but I think that if anyone does do that it is very wrong. Also, you have to agree that the Liberal media is in the wrong as well, they are trying to paint all of us who support the war as being war mongers, which can’t be further from the truth. I think that both sides should stop all this political spin and just agree that we both support our troops and want them home as soon as possible.
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SR_Crewchief
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 9:59pm |
goodsmitty wrote:
SR_Crewchief wrote:
<snip>
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Dave, I've seen you post this and others like it for some time now. Pehaps our government moved to fast, perhaps it moved to slow, history will tell in the end. What I have yet to see is how you think we should pull out, and more importantly, what we should leave behind. Pointing out what you believe to be a problem isn't enough. If your going to, have a solution as well. |
As I am not on the ground I cannot build a plan, but I can say this, if what you are doing hasn't worked for the first two years, then try something else. I believe that we do not have enough troops on the ground to secure Iraq, so we had better double our troop strength, or whatever is necessary to get the job done. If that means a draft, then so be it. Better to go through that than piddle away another 10,000 soldiers and not fix our mess, but avoid the public outrage of a draft. We either get it done or pull out.
The only people who would not suffer from ten more years of the same is the oil companies. Because 1) they are not soldiers getting killed, and 2) they are not Iraqi people without electricity. And as I believe that Halliburton and the oil companies are running the war and calling every shot, we will have ten more years of the same. And I will be protesting every March 20th. [/QUOTE]
Sorry, that's a cop out. That's not the way you were trained, or at least it shouldn't have been. If it was, then your NCO's and CO's didn't do thier job.
You want to stomp and rant about it, but not offer a sollution. On the face of it, you just want our troops to pull out and damn the consiquenses. Whether you agree with the public justifications or not, the mission now is to leave an Iraqi government that can stand on it's own two feet. If you don't think that the current methods will work, then instead of "protesting" find a way to get into a position to effect change.
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 24 March 2005 at 10:13pm |
SR_Crewchief wrote:
goodsmitty wrote:
SR_Crewchief wrote:
<snip>
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Dave, I've seen you post this and others like it for some time now. Pehaps our government moved to fast, perhaps it moved to slow, history will tell in the end. What I have yet to see is how you think we should pull out, and more importantly, what we should leave behind. Pointing out what you believe to be a problem isn't enough. If your going to, have a solution as well. |
As I am not on the ground I cannot build a plan, but I can say this, if what you are doing hasn't worked for the first two years, then try something else. I believe that we do not have enough troops on the ground to secure Iraq, so we had better double our troop strength, or whatever is necessary to get the job done. If that means a draft, then so be it. Better to go through that than piddle away another 10,000 soldiers and not fix our mess, but avoid the public outrage of a draft. We either get it done or pull out.
The only people who would not suffer from ten more years of the same is the oil companies. Because 1) they are not soldiers getting killed, and 2) they are not Iraqi people without electricity. And as I believe that Halliburton and the oil companies are running the war and calling every shot, we will have ten more years of the same. And I will be protesting every March 20th.
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Sorry, that's a cop out. That's not the way you were trained, or at least it shouldn't have been. If it was, then your NCO's and CO's didn't do thier job. You want to stomp and rant about it, but not offer a sollution. On the face of it, you just want our troops to pull out and damn the consiquenses. Whether you agree with the public justifications or not, the mission now is to leave an Iraqi government that can stand on it's own two feet. If you don't think that the current methods will work, then instead of "protesting" find a way to get into a position to effect change. [/QUOTE]
I didn't say pull out. I said either send the troops there to get the job done right, or pull out and don't waste any more American lives.
1. If the war is only about oil, which I say it is, then we will keep minimal troop strength on the ground to keep the American people happy, secure the oil, and not fix much of anything else. That is what is happening right now.
2. Or, if we are there to liberate a downtrodden people, we will draft soldiers, secure the country, hand it back over to the Iraqis, and leave our altruistic endeavors.
I'm betting on #1, any takers?
I was trained to take care of soldiers. That is exactly what I am doing right now.
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty
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oldsoldier
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Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:01pm |
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Sorry Sir beg to differ......If you were trained to take care of your soldiers, your methods and training are seriouly lacking. The difference between todays leaders and yesterdays leaders is that todays military leaders fear the efficiency report more than the loss of mission and focus, and the political leaders of today fear the voting American more than the enemy.
To risk all for a cause, to lead from the front, to support the mission illregardless of personal intent is the mark of a true leader. To wave in the breeze, finger in the wind, and to break ranks with your fellow soldiers in harms way by doubting the mission hense hurting morale and the troops in harms way confidense, is not the way to lead as an officer, nco or veteran. The day the guns grow silent is the day we can reflect on the right or wrong of the cause.
We obviously come from totally differant schools of Leadership.
We learned a valueable lesson in Vietnam, a war fought by polititians, and with the media bias at the front and at home, the troops on the ground were not able politically to complete the mission at hand. If we did allow todays mission to be done as needed without the media "anal" exam of every decesion forcing a PC war (which to my knowledge can not be accomplished) maybe we could get it done, hand it over, and walk away in a more effective manner, hense giving our troops a goal and purpose to work towards instead of seeing the biased political morase this is turning into. That in itself would save more American lives. We won the ground war both in Vietnam and in Iraq, but the polititians did not then, nor today will let us win as we have done in the past, you beat em on the field of battle, you beat them in the hearts and minds of thier supporters, and you destroy the infastructure that may allow them to return. You rebuild the fallen innocents, and protect them till they can protect themselves. Look at post war Germany and Japan, each arose after a total defeat to a world power, after the last vestages of Nazi and Imperial domination were removed and replaced with a form of democratic rule, the populace changed slowly at first, not trusting, some residual guerilla movements, soon the populace turned on the past and opted for the future.......it took 15 years for Germany and 11+ years for Japan, both of which still have an American military presence....yet we expect "instant results" today with Iraq and Afganistan.
Still pluggin away till April 02............
Edited by oldsoldier
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:12pm |
oldsoldier wrote:
Sorry Sir beg to differ......If you were trained to take care of your soldiers, your methods and training are seriouly lacking. The difference between todays leaders and yesterdays leaders is that todays military leaders fear the efficiency report more than the loss of mission and focus, and the political leaders of today fear the voting American more than the enemy.
Still pluggin away till April 02............ |
Am I still in? No. If I were still obligated, I would do my duty. But now that I am allowed to think for myself again, I protest.
I never feared the efficiency report, did what I thought was right, stood on some pretty high ranking toes (ADC-S 1 star at one point), and still got all top blocks. You are really stretching.
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty
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oldsoldier
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Posted: 25 March 2005 at 10:42pm |
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Neither am I still "in", but I understand from a combat soldiers viewpoint how to still "lead", in that I support the troops and the mission. And when the guns grow silent, then I will reflect and determine worth of mission, not until. Where the soldier in the field does not have to see how his actions are seen differantly at home, a pure politically motivated negative media slant, than what he sees and expieriences in the field. To lower morale and efficiency of the troops in a combat zone by demeaning his mission and his leaders, as well as his leaders intent, will in that troops mind cause doubt, that doubt will cause a complacency, a lack of will, a lowering of situation awareness, and yes lead to more needless loses.....
You Sir in your actions here are indirectly but yes still jeopardizing the lives of the troops in the field, and if as an ex serving officer you can not recognize that, I truely can not see how in your mind you can justify your actions, and in my world a grenade pin would be on left on your pillow, just as a freindly reminder.
Never got a 125 EER either and still reached E-8(P), Leadership can not be trained, respect is earned, and for 23 years I kept the faith as I do today. I can today question Vietnam with my peers who served there, remmember Grenada for what that was worth, and the lost chance during Desert Storm in that todays mess may never have to have happened, but till the day the guns again grow silent, I will take no action against or percieved against those who serve and those who sent them....for I do remmember what it did to us 35 years ago, as we looked home and wondered why.............
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