sniper mask

Somebody asked if there was anything else to say, and I think there is.  I'll start by stating my position on snipers in paintball:

    Balls up fists, jumps up and down and screams "Are too!" repeatedly.

Just kidding .  I had to do that since it seems to be the way most of the pro-sniper crowd state their position.  Seriously, I think there are snipers (or a semi-equivilant style that can be called that for the sake of simplicity) in paintball.  But they are not the ghillie-suited wonders who hide in the bushes and wait for the occassional lucky ambush; and they are not the guys who build up high elimination counts by staking out the reinsertion points and shooting helpless people the minute they step onto the playing field.  (A personal dislike of mine-I consider such behavior to be completly without honor.)  They are instead the rare and disciplined individuals who know their marker thoroughly and head into the woods with both a specific mission and the skills to carry it out with minimal risk of detection and return fire.  When I say "rare" individual I mean that I've encountered just one person who fits my definition since the first time I played this game back in 1985.  (And, for those who are wondering, I don't consider myself a sniper.)  He doesn't use a pump gun or wear a ghillie.  He alway moves through the woods silently and unseen.  (Sometimes I think he got ahold of Predator cloaking technology from somewhere.)  He is a deadly shot both with aimed shots and with snapshooting and usually he prefers to just execute effective one-man ambushes while defending the team's flanks.  When he goes into "sniper" mode though I have seen him use the terrain to his advantage to the point where he takes his one shot, gets his one elimination, disappears, and repeats to his hearts content without ever having a single shot fired at him.  In this mode he meets every requirement of the sniper definition put forth previously on this forum.  (I believe the definition was provided by Sr Crewchief, but I'm not positive.)  The funny part is when you talk with this guy he doesn't seem to consider himself all that good.  He just does what he does and doesn't get all egotistical about it. 

So, with all that said, while I belive sniper's in paintball do exist, I also believe the majority of the "snipers" who get themselves flamed on this forum for their insistance that they posess such supernatural skills are nothing more than posers.  Most, with further maturity and experience, will develop a non-sniper playing style that is more effective for them.  Some will get disillusioned that they aren't Tom Berenger and will quit.   A very few, probably less than one in ten thousand will actually become the player they invision themselves as now; and they will probably look back at their earlier selves and laugh.

There are three things which were stated in the anti-sniper arguments that I intend to protest:  That patience has no place in the game, that if you hide in the brush you are automatically a camper, and that you are not using teamwork unless you can see your team and are communicating with them. 

As an older player with knee and back problems who doesn't move as quick as the majority of the folks I play with, patience is a major part of my game.  When I execute an ambush, I want the most eliminations I can possibly get out of it.  To fire to soon would probably get one elimination, maybe two, but would allow others to get away.  Acting at just the right moment can result in multiple eliminations and do my team much more good.  I must admit though there is such a thing as waiting to long to act.  I once found myself ambushing a six-person squad from the center of their formation because I waited to long for the "perfect" opportunity.  (I got one, two of them eliminated each other in the crossfire and the rest painted me thoroughly.) 

I prefer to establish ambushes as opposed to hunting other players down, does this make me a camper?  I don't think so.  It means I've discovered, much to my annoyance, that sometimes I can't stalk as fast as my target moves so it's better to figure out where they're going, then go there and wait for them.  (It's very frustrating to be behind folks who have no clue I'm there and have them get away because they can stampede through the woods much more quickly than I can quietly hunt them.)

Finally, just because I can't see my team and am not talking to them does not make me "not a team player".  One of the things you can count on at our field is that the defending team will have pre-positioned a flanker or two well away from the flag station.  We play on approximately 100 acres of varied terrain so it is easy for these flankers to avoid the offensive team as it inserts.  They stay out of sight until the offensive team is completely involved with the flag defenders, then sweep in from behind and cripple the attack.  To counter this some of us more disciplined players utilize a rear-guard strategy.  (Sometimes, depending on terrain, we also post flank security as well.)  We will sweep the area that offers the most likely avenue of concealed approach to the rest of the team once they engage the defensive forces at the flag.  During the sweep one of us will drop out of the formation-hopefully unnoticed-in the midst of thick cover and wait.  The actions taken if an enemy force comes in from behind varies depending upon the size of the force and the terrain.  (I actually surrendered a couple of players by doing this.  They were as intent on the backs of my team mates as my team was on assaulting the flag.)  Yes, this could probably be called camping, and, yes it can be very boring when no one tries to sneak up on the rest of the team.  But it is vital to the team; it both secures the rear from attack and allows the rest of the team to place all of their concentration on taking the flag.


Edited by Mack

Darur wrote: Mack wrote: Somebody asked if there was anything else to say, and I think there is.  I'll start by stating my position on snipers in paintball:     Balls up fists, jumps up and down and screams "Are too!" repeatedly. Just kidding .  I had to do that since it seems to be the way most of the pro-sniper crowd state their position.  Seriously, I think there are snipers (or a semi-equivilant style that can be called that for the sake of simplicity) in paintball.  But they are not the ghillie-suited wonders who hide in the bushes and wait for the occassional lucky ambush; and they are not the guys who build up high elimination counts by staking out the reinsertion points and shooting helpless people the minute they step onto the playing field.  (A personal dislike of mine-I consider such behavior to be completly without honor.)  They are instead the rare and disciplined individuals Wow, first things first, did you just use the term "disciplined individual" to describe a paintballer? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  The average paintballer is a teenager 14-17 years old, they are about as disciplined as a gnat with ADHD. Not all paintball players are undisciplined.  (Just most of them.)  As a side note, I believe that the percentage of disciplined players in speedball is significantly higher than in woodsball due to the formalized competion involved.  I play with several individuals (mostly well above the average age you mention above) who I can trust not to wander off in search of targets if they get bored covering the flank but will instead be where they said they would be doing what they would do.  (Nothing annoys me more than to find out the guy covering my but got bored and left.  Usually this discovery is made via several paintballs breaking on my back.  The few younger players that I trust this much all play speedball in addition to woodsball, which is why I made the comment about discipline above. who know their marker thoroughly Meaning what?  The rest of us just break the thing open, snap a few parts off, slab on some oil wherever we like, throw the parts back wherever they fit and hope the thing works? Meaning, that unlike a lot of woodsball players who don't even touch their marker except to remove it from the trunk of the car where they through it the week before without even cleaning it, they care for it and practice with it until it becomes an extension of their body.  (I've also noticed that speedball players as a group tend to care for their equipment better.  I don't like speedball, but I think I'm going to have to admit that it helps some players develop self-discipline.) and head into the woods with both a specific mission K, heres the problem with that. Say their mission is to check the fork in the path ahead to clear it for their team and then the team decides to take a different path leaving the "sniper" to sit at the junction for the whole game till he gets shot.  Well, clearly the sniper (we will call him Bill) isnt going to yell to the captin (Jim) "Hey Jim, wheres yall at?!" and Jim wont yell 'Yo Bill, we are taking the other path, turn around".  Lack of communication = no teamwork = newb I won't get into specific missions as assigned in scenario games because that would be a cop-out which does not apply to what I'm talking about.  I'm referencing your average weekend players.  What specific missions might they have you ask?  Here are examples from situations I've seen/experienced: Stalking and eliminating a certain player whose loss would cripple the opposing team (This can be someone who is an outstanding shot or someone whose leadership skills increase the effectiveness of those around him.) Controlling key terrain  (This can be anything from a choke-point such as a bridge or path or high point or bunker which allows observation of things your team doesn't want observed.) Interdiction/harrasment  (Not the normal hit and run strike anyone-even me-can pull off to be annoying.  I'm talking about the ability to get so far inside your opponents' minds that while you may only eliminate a single individual, you effectively remove several more from the game as they cower in fear or fruitlessly hunt for you.) and the skills to carry it out So the rest of us just run around without the slightest clue what we are doing? Actually, yes .  J/K.  However, some folks do just that.  Many others have decent to good skills; some are very good at some aspects of the game and not so good at others; some are very good at all aspects of the game; a very few are great at all aspects of the game.  Then there are those singular individuals that are just phenomonal at everything; the guys you wouldn't want to run into anywhere if this was more than a game. with minimal risk of detection and return fire.  Golly Gee, sounds like your average woodsballer right there. No, it doesn't.  Your average woodsballer usually gets a few shots back at him if he engages more than a couple of individuals, even if he surprises them.  I'm talking about finding his target, eliminating his target, and leaving; in most cases with anyone else who happened to be nearby asking "What just happened".  In the rare cases the individual is spotted return fire us usually impossible, either because the shot was made down a narrow firing lane between/under/over interveining growth or because he happened to be using a flatline that day and made the shot under the overhanging branches at a range that prevents anyone with a normal barrel from making an effective shot in response. When I say "rare" individual I mean that I've encountered just one person who fits my definition since the first time I played this game back in 1985.  (And, for those who are wondering, I don't consider myself a sniper.)  He doesn't use a pump gun or wear a ghillie.  He alway moves through the woods silently and unseen.  Sounds like your classic newb who runs off and does his own thing while the team works together to win the game. Most newbs don't get asked by the field owner to limit themselves to a certain number of eliminations per game to prevent the other team from getting discouraged.  Actually, that may explain his playing style.  I know he's passed up shots at inexperienced players so that he could engage the better players at our field. (Sometimes I think he got ahold of Predator cloaking technology from somewhere.)  He is a deadly shot both with aimed shots and with snapshooting And the rest of us cant hit the side of a barn? That depends on the individual.  I know a kid who can make lobbed shots you wouldn't believe but has to use accuracy by volume for close encounters.  I never miss a shot that I have a second to actually aim, but really suck at snapshooting.  (And my left handed shots wouldn't even hit the ground if it wasn't for gravity.)  He is just the best shot with a marker of anyone I've ever met. and usually he prefers to just execute effective one-man ambushes while defending the team's flanks.  Making him your typical camper Not.  He hunts his prey and sets his ambushes up much as I try to do.  (Just better.)  When he goes into "sniper" mode though I have seen him use the terrain to his advantage Once again, classical woodsballer There are different levels of skill in the woods.  Your "classic woodsballer" can vary from someone in cammies who chooses the wrong background to your ex-military type who posesses and utilizes the whole gamut of tactical woodcraft.  Now, would I compare him to an Army Ranger or Marine Sniper, no I wouldn't.  But I do know that he's better than anyone else I've played against in the woods.  Additionally, the 82nd Airborne guy that plays at our field when he's home on leave respects the mans skills in the woods. to the point where he takes his one shot, gets his one elimination, disappears, and repeats to his hearts content without ever having a single shot fired at him.  In this mode he meets every requirement of the sniper definition put forth previously on this forum.(I believe the definition was provided by Sr Crewchief, but I'm not positive.)  Enlighten me, whats this deffinition? As I said, I don't remember who came up with it.  I printed a copy once, but don't know what I did with it.  I was hoping that mentioning it would motivate someone else to post it.  Here's the parts I do remember  (but not word for word-sorry): Ability to effectively engage target without risk of return fire Ability to move skillfully in the woods Ability to ingress and egress to target site without detection Ability to complete missions that support the overall team goals The funny part is when you talk with this guy he doesn't seem to consider himself all that good.  He just does what he does and doesn't get all egotistical about it. That would probably be because he is your typical woodsballer.  That Actually, it's just because he's a really decent person.  Everyone at the field would understand if he went on a huge ego trip about his skills, but he doesn't. So, with all that said, while I belive sniper's in paintball do exist, I also believe the majority of the "snipers" who get themselves flamed on this forum for their insistance that they posess such supernatural skills are nothing more than posers.  Hate to break it to you but all snipers are posers That is just your opinion.  I've offered an opinion to the contrary. (About which you can-and probably will-say the same thing, that's okay, I can take it, it's all part of communication and interaction.)  I have tried however to support my opinion with examples and explanation.  You will probably not accept my point of view any more than I accept yours, but this discussion is much better than the guys who get rude with each other and degenerate to mis-spelled name calling.) Most, with further maturity and experience, will develop a non-sniper playing style that is more effective for them.  Yeah, its called learning that snipers dont exist and finnaly working with your team. I would change the above to "...learning that they aren't a sniper and finding a style that works better for them and their team."  Some will get disillusioned that they aren't Tom Berenger and will quit.   A very few, probably less than one in ten thousand will actually become the player they invision themselves as now; Only an ignorent fool will think that they are a sniper after playing as a "sniper" for a long time I'd like to think that most paintball players would realize that attempting to play as a sniper doesn't make them a sniper anymore than attempting to play as a "grunt" qualifies them as a rifleman, but I've seen enough to know better.  I wonder if this is one of the reasons that the sniper wars exist on the forum.  I probably should have stated earlier that I draw no parallels between paintball snipers and military/law enforcement snipers. and they will probably look back at their earlier selves and laugh. Who are we talking about?  The smart guys that realize snipers dont exist or the ignorent ones that think they do? Three answers: The guys who realized "sniping" didn't work for them and switched styles will probably find humor in their earlier actions The few who play so skillfully that they occasionally play as a sniper may or may not;  my limited experience is the really good players do not worry about style so much as effectiveness and don't tend to think of themselves as anything other than paintball players.  (This leaves it to the rest of us mere mortals to cower in fear at their approach and classify them to our hearts content.) The guys who still think they are snipers will hide in the bushes (with most of the bad things you said about them being applicable to their playing style) until someone sneaks up on them and shoots them in the back.  Or they will get their "one shot-one kill" then get hunted, pinned down, and brutally eliminated because they didn't consider the difference between cover and concealment or plan an effective egress route. There are three things which were stated in the anti-sniper arguments that I intend to protest:  That patience has no place in the game, To a certain degree.  The only use for patience is being cautious Valid statement, I will just add that caution is important because the incautious tend to get eliminated which makes them no use to their team. that if you hide in the brush you are automatically a camper, If you hide in brush for periods of time you are camper, yes I don't believe you specified "periods of time" earlier, but I may have misunderstood.  Suffice it to say if someone is still hiding in the brush waiting for an easy kill to wander by while their team mates are being eliminated and the team is in danger of losing, they are campers. and that you are not using teamwork unless you can see your team and are communicating with them.  Yep, how are you helping your team if you arent workign with them? As I explain below, you are helping your team by being where they expect you to be, providing security or observation as appropriate.  If you have to move and you don't re-establish contact with your team so they know you're moving, then you aren't helping them.  As an older player with knee and back problems who doesn't move as quick as the majority of the folks I play with, patience is a major part of my game.  When I execute an ambush, I want the most eliminations I can possibly get out of it.  To fire to soon would probably get one elimination, maybe two, but would allow others to get away.  That falls under timeing Part of good timing is patience.  The most blatant example of poor timing/lack of patience would be one we've all seen:  The new player who gets excited and fires to soon from way out range, both wasting his paint and revealing his position. Acting at just the right moment can result in multiple eliminations and do my team much more good.  I must admit though there is such a thing as waiting to long to act.  I once found myself ambushing a six-person squad from the center of their formation because I waited to long for the "perfect" opportunity.  (I got one, two of them eliminated each other in the crossfire and the rest painted me thoroughly.)  I prefer to establish ambushes as opposed to hunting other players down, does this make me a camper?  To a degree.  Where is the skill in sitting down in brush all day?  I will give you that moving to intercept another team with an ambush is smart but just sitting down on a trail  and waiting is stupid. I didn't say I sit in the brush all day, but you already acknowledged that.  I mention this because of what I'm going to add next:  I prefer to play in thicker cover, mainly because anyone can run me down in open terrain.  And I do mean anyone, I got taken out by a kid less than a third of my age last year after he chased me down around a big bush once my PT was empty.  (I used to go out with just a pistol every once in a while to motivate me to work on my movement skills-things went really wrong that time.) I don't think so.  It means I've discovered, much to my annoyance, that sometimes I can't stalk as fast as my target moves so it's better to figure out where they're going, then go there and wait for them.  (It's very frustrating to be behind folks who have no clue I'm there and have them get away because they can stampede through the woods much more quickly than I can quietly hunt them.) Finally, just because I can't see my team and am not talking to them does not make me "not a team player".  One of the things you can count on at our field is that the defending team will have pre-positioned a flanker or two well away from the flag station.  We play on approximately 100 acres of varied terrain so it is easy for these flankers to avoid the offensive team as it inserts.  They stay out of sight until the offensive team is completely involved with the flag defenders, then sweep in from behind and cripple the attack.  That is not what we are talking about.  We are reffering to when a person runs ahead of his team or in another direction because he wants to hit another objective for the team and in doing so seperates himself from the team and is now worthless. Then we mostly misunderstood each other on that point.  I agree that in most cases the "lone wolf" does not do his team a lot of good, although I will throw out one exception to this statement.  When we play double flag games it is not uncommon for one or both teams to send the fastest runner to the primitive bridge that crosses the creek in the middle of the field.  Yes he gets separated from the rest of the team, but his mission is to get in place quick enough to prevent any crossings at this point.  The terrain is such that a single individual on either side can prevent use of the bridge.  The bridge is so located that for either team to cross it and control both sides early in the game provides an almost insurmountable advantage to that team. To counter this some of us more disciplined players utilize a rear-guard strategy.  (Sometimes, depending on terrain, we also post flank security as well.)  We will sweep the area that offers the most likely avenue of concealed approach to the rest of the team once they engage the defensive forces at the flag.  During the sweep one of us will drop out of the formation-hopefully unnoticed-in the midst of thick cover and wait.  The actions taken if an enemy force comes in from behind varies depending upon the size of the force and the terrain.  (I actually surrendered a couple of players by doing this.  They were as intent on the backs of my team mates as my team was on assaulting the flag.)  Yes, this could probably be called camping, and, yes it can be very boring when no one tries to sneak up on the rest of the team.  But it is vital to the team; it both secures the rear from attack and allows the rest of the team to place all of their concentration on taking the flag.

P.S.  Did you notice the cool blue color I used to contrast with your red text?


Edited by Mack

o_O

I have to say, its a breath of fresh air to read a response that doesnt call me a moron or a liar.

I have a bit of a reply drafted already, Its just the day you posted this I got hit with a bunch on reports and work, havent had much time.

people type to much.

Darur I made that thread after I saw this and others. I then made it clear in that thread that I don't care what anybody has to say about snipers anymore. Like them don't like them paintball is still a game and we should be talking about better things. Now if you feel like ripping this post apart be my guest. I've said all I wish to say on this topic.

There is sniping in paintball. I hit people from like 400 feet away. Jeeze your just jelous you don't have the skills like me.

Nutteralex wrote: There is sniping in paintball. I hit people from like 400 feet away. Jeeze your just jelous you don't have the skills like me.

bah 400 ft tahts leik, teh nuthinz, i hitz ppl frum leik a mile away.

noobface.

I have so much to say on this topic, but I have to get cought up on some work... Maybe later.

Give it up, there is no sniping in paintball. You just want to join the army but are to out of shape or to scared to get shot.