Thank you Sen. Kerry.

FlimFlam wrote: First, you'll be chagrined to know that the report only deals with recent high school graduates, not "housewives or retired folks" taking classes.

Chagrined indeed.  That's what I get for posting before reading.  Nevertheless, I will forge on, despite the risk of inserting my foot further into my mouth.

But I clearly did a poor job of stating my point.  Let me try again.

1.  Recent national statistics showed that the average income of college graduates is basically double that of a non-college HS grad.

2.  I propose, without supporting data, that similar statistics drilled down would show that the average income of college graduates from state schools or equivalent/better private schools is sharply different from the average income of graduates from community colleges and tech schools.  I can certainly state that the employment opportunities differ vastly between those two categories of schools.

3.  When people in general talk of going to college, they generally don't mean CC or tech school - "college" in common nomenclature means 4-year state school or better.

4.  I propose, without supporting data, that 4-year state colleges are not meaningfully accessible to most Americans, simply on the basis of economics.  Lumping CC/tech schools in with the data skews the data.

Maybe that makes more sense.

Clark Kent wrote: First, the American dream doesn't involve working for a decade out of HS to save up enough cash to go to college, and take 6 years to graduate because you were working more than studying while there.  The implied promise of a state school is (IMO) something more than that.  Nor does the American dream involve housewives or retired folks taking college classes for the heck of it.

First, you'll be chagrined to know that the report only deals with recent high school graduates, not "housewives or retired folks" taking classes.

Second, I'm not sure who is giving out the "implied promise" of secondary education, but as far as I know that's up to each individual to EARN. 

Clark Kent wrote: Second, while a community college (and similar institutions) technically qualify as post-secondary education, it does not, I believe, afford anywhere near the same level of benefit that a decent "regular" college does.  I unfortunately have no hard data to back that up, only loads of anecdotal evidence.

Two year, or four year, both offer careers and jobs over and above the lone high school graduate.  Not everyone is able and or willing to go through four years of additional education.  It's not a right, it's a privilege earned by those of all classes and social status who wish to pursue it.  If you wish to debate the family structure of those who encourage their children to be all they can be, that's a separate discussion.  If it were a right and deserved by all, high school would last 8 years instead of 4.

There are, in fact, opportunities (even good ones!) for those who have two year degrees or even those who have no degrees.  One of the aforementioned friends of mine in this thread has less than one year of college and he now EARNS as much as I do in any given year, despite my 4 year college education and 10 years in the professional work force.  Furthermore, he's now going back to school to further propel his career and career options at the ripe old age of 36.  But fear not, he's not skewing the prior quoted numbers of mine.

Clark Kent wrote: But the American dream involves having the opportunity to a real education - the kind that can land you a high-paying job and improve your life, not spending 2-4 four years getting an expensive degree, only to find that the best job you can get is secretarial.

I'm not sure, but I don't think the American Dream has anything to do with education.  It's about a house, car, picket fence, 2 kids, all that.  How you achieve that is a choice each individual must make for themselves.  You can do it with education, or not.  Achievable both ways, just a little easier with an education.

And if you spend 2-4 years earning an expensive degree, and the only job you can find is secretarial, than I would submit that perhaps you chose the wrong major in college.  Liberal arts, degrees in music, literature, English, History, they're all fine, but they're not going to earn you the "big bucks" of which you speak.  As a musician, I'd have loved to get a degree in music when I was in college.  But when I looked at the 18 year old rusted out Toyota that our high school band teacher drove, I guessed that perhaps there wasn't much of a financial future in a music degree.  If you want to pursue that, by all means, please do.  We NEED those people.  Just don't be surprised, and as importantly, complain, when you don't have a job like those who majored in a business, technological, journalistic, or educational field.

Clark Kent wrote: All schools are not created equal, and looking merely at numbers of enrollees is not, in a vacuum, helpful.

True, numbers can be made to say many things.  I was only posting in response to GoodSmitty's outright grandstanding and propagation of false statements about the state of American education as it relates to political and economic policy.  Again, two or four year school, it doesn't matter.  It's higher education, and certainly preparing the youth for more than "Burger King or Wal-Mart"

As far as "my arguement," both my arguement and this whole arguement were long over... I'm sick and tired of these two morons re-hashing their liberal crap over and over again.   They have nothing else to say unless it involves a direct shot at Republican America or those dumb military people.   They have had NO direct contact with real life in their 19 years of existance.  

After 4 years of being here and listening to their BS and 35 years of life, I am entitled to a melt down.   I think I've earned the right to throw down a rant.   You can talk and talk (read: type and type), but sometime the only thing that really helps is a good biatchslap.

Clark Kent wrote: Hard to tell without more specifics, though.

"Among recent high school graduates enrolled in college, 91.2 percent were full-time students.  Of these full-time students, 44.3 percent were in the labor force, either working or looking for work, in October 2005.  In contrast, 79.0 percent of part-time college students participated in the labor force."

You can read the full report here

Regardless of full or part-time status, the numbers still speak for themselves.  Higher education is still attainable for even the middle class, and lower class for those who take advantage of it.

Still waiting GoodSmitty...