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For the cocker boys |
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tallen702 ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11856 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 26 November 2006 at 3:55pm |
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Gentlemen,
Now that WGP has pretty much screwed the pooch with our beloved autocockers, what do you say we see if we can't brain storm some new ideas to upgrade the heck out of the sucker to keep it up to speed with the rest of the paintball community. The E-Blade was little more than a step up from the old F-5 upgrade, and the use of a solenoid to actuate a mechanical hammer and take the place of the 3-way isn't very inventive when it comes to the whole scheme of things. The challenge I issue is this, let's put our heads together and see if we can't come up with the basic needs of a high-end tournament marker while keeping the basis of the auto-cocker intact. Keep in mind while brainstorming that the things that set the 'cocker apart from other markers are AT LEAST the following: 1)Separate pneumatically operated cocking system (no blow back/blow forward) 2)Closed Bolt Design 3)Back-block actuation to load/chamber a new round 4)Straight-pull stacked-bolt design for easy cleaning 5)Free Floating hammer (not statically linked to the bolt) 6)Easily modified and personalized I'm not objecting to any ideas that would change one or two of these items (for example, a solenoid actuated valve would be far more efficient than a hammer) but we need to try and keep the marker an "Autococker" Let's see what we've got! -Tallen |
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Yomillio ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Retard Joined: 31 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3398 |
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Well, first, I think we need to realize what the "goal" of a tourney marker is and how we can do it now on an Autococker. The typical tourney marker is compact, light-weight, fast, and accurate. We already have accuracy on our side, so I think the only way to improve it would be using lighter-weight parts for less kick. Anyways, lighter parts would need to be used anyway for speed (bolt, rear block, cocking rod, any mass that has to be moved and stopped quickly). Now, as im new to cockers, its not like I can tell you about every inch of every part, but im pretty sure i understand the basic operation. So, lets see what we can do for those remaining aspects of a truly high end, tournament killer marker. Compact: Theres really nothing we can do here, except going half-block. Now,I personally dont like this, but its all we can really do. However, Autococker also has a slight advantage here in the fact that the barrel is set back from the front of the marker. No big deal, as this starts where other markers usually complely end anyhow. Light-weight: Well, for upgrades avalible now, theres a lot we can do to make it lighter. Once again, the half block body appears. However, I am going to address the rest of this segment as if we are dealing with a standard body, with flush back block. For a barrel, the best in light weight is obviously Stiffi. Go with 12 inches, its long enough here. If they have it in 10", i think thats usable too, but its debatable as to if theres any effect on accuracy. As I and the majority believe, there is no difference. Moving on, Stiffi also produces a carbon fiber bolt, which is still lighter than delron and supposedly dosent need lubrication. CCM has a delron back block, probably one of the lightest avalible. And, of course, lightweight parts such as these help with cycle rates. Speed: This isnt my area. I havent yet explored the relam of electro-cockers, so I dont know whats best and what wont work with what. Of course, we would move on to some kind of electric frame for maximum speed. This is where someone else takes over Now, im sure theres other things that I have left gaps in, but if you guys have a completely better design of someting, I know I just outined things avalible right now in the aftermarket, with no truly innovative ideas. Maybe when I start progressing through the relam that is Autococker, ill have some better ideas. |
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Monk ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 October 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6556 |
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Im confused as to what your saying.
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tallen702 ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11856 |
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I think we could probably go even more extreme than just using a standard "mini" cocker body/block. If we swap out the standard valve and hammer and go for a low-pressure valve with solenoid actuation, then you don't actually need anything to move very far as you can regulate the FPS via the dwell setting. All you'd need to stay within the idea of a closed bolt (still using a back block) would would be enough room for the bolt to open far enough for another round to drop in. I'll see if I can't take some measurements at the house when I get off work, but I figure we can cut the length of the body down by almost half and still achieve what we'd be looking for. Don't stay static with your thoughts, feel free to "think outside the box" on this. My father is an engineer and I now have access to C&C milling equipment. If we figure things out and I get enough time to draw up a schematic, we could very possibly create a new marker here.
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Yomillio ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Retard Joined: 31 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3398 |
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Well, I kinda have to stay static with my thoughts cause my knowledge right now is very limited Edited by Yomillio - 26 November 2006 at 6:07pm |
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tallen702 ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11856 |
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it's all good man!
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Yomillio ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Retard Joined: 31 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3398 |
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Well, I suppose we can start by looking at the things I listed as well as other high end parts and seeing what exactly makes them the best of the best, and see if we can combine whats great about one with whats great about another or what we could do to make the design better. I think we should start by machining a custom body or buying a new one and doing some modifications to it. Maybe make it open bolt, and shave off as much metal as we can. Also, would the whole ventui bolt face thing work with autocockers? If it does, I say one of us picks up a Stiffi bolt and tries to make it work. Of course, make a mock bolt first to make sure we can do it as not to ruin a $70 bolt. Maybe when I get my cocker il take some demensions and mess around with it. ill try and figure out if its possible. If the whole venturi thing dosent appy to cockers cause of the way it operates, Ill try and mess around with the idea of putting a ball cradle piece into a Stiffi bolt, because as far as I know the front of it is just like an open circle. Of course, if you end up puttig eyes in it, which of course should happen, it dosent mater as much, but it still stabilizes ball flight, I think. Less chopping and more accuracy, anyone?
Edited by Yomillio - 26 November 2006 at 7:26pm |
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tallen702 ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11856 |
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new body is most definately a must. I think we can probably shorten the
thing to B2k length or less without it being as tall. Venturi bolts exist for current cockers, so I don't think it would be an issue to modify/build one for the project. As is, I just talked with my father and he'll do the 3d CAD drawings for us gratis. There are a couple of milling companies (C&C automated lathes) here in the DC area who will do custom work for a nominal fee (I'd be more than happy to build a prototype) If we can work off of current cocker dimensions, it would make it easier to get a marker idea mass-produced as the re-tooling wouldn't be as severe to make the bodies/parts. I'm working out a valve/solenoid system to reduce the space needed to fire the marker so we can shorten up the body. Keep coming with the info! |
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Monk ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 October 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6556 |
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Solenoid actuated valve? Wouldnt that be like an Intimidator?
So why not just try and put an Intimidator grip frame on a cocker? |
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The Guy ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Soup Can Guy Joined: 18 March 2004 Status: Offline Points: 6666 |
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if you wanna go for less kick, how about a G10 back block/sled?
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tallen702 ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11856 |
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The problem with throwing a timmy-frame on a cocker is that you would still have to account for the front-block pneumatics. Also, a Timmy has a joined stacked-bolt and hammer vs a cocker's separate system. If you use a separate pneumatic system to load and chamber another ball, you can do away with the whole ram/hammer and valve system all together and just use a solenoid to actuate the valve itself, saving space and length when it comes to the marker. Using a timmy board might be a possiblity though.
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DeTrevni ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() b-YOU-ick. Was that so hard? Joined: 19 September 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Status: Offline Points: 11957 |
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SHO anyone? I say figure out an easy way to manufacture a pneu-pump kit where the pneus are easily removable for stock-class play, and easily reattatched for tourny play.
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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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phil_stl ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() strike 1 flaming 3/2 Joined: 01 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1421 |
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DeTrevni ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() b-YOU-ick. Was that so hard? Joined: 19 September 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Status: Offline Points: 11957 |
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Me or them?
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Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"
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phil_stl ![]() Gold Member ![]() ![]() strike 1 flaming 3/2 Joined: 01 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1421 |
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Them,
But I don't know much about cockers anyway. So that doesn't help. I'm trying to learn a bit were I can. Because they seem like cool guns but just so confusing. |
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Enos Shenk ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() ~-o@ Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: A comfy chair Status: Offline Points: 14109 |
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Not that hard. Ive tinkered around with making a cocker with no mechanical 3-way linkage. Just use the front block bolt hole. Since it carries the operating pressure, use a reverse air-actuated valve so when the gun fires, the pressure in the main air chamber drops and the valve switches. |
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daniero ![]() Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 August 2005 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Any thoughts about electro-cockers? I would like to learn about that.
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Silver Invert Mini
Yellow 'Cocker ![]() |
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Yomillio ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Retard Joined: 31 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3398 |
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All you have to do its throw an electo trigger fame on it and poof! You have an electro-cocker. |
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tallen702 ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11856 |
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Yeah, but not true electro-pneumatic! ![]() ![]() ![]() Read the prior posts, we've been talking about it a bit. I've got tomorrow off, I'm going to go ahead and do some drawings by hand and scan them on my gf's mac and put them up for some ideas so far. -Tallen |
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WGP guy2 ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() I play the Bag Pipes Joined: 23 September 2005 Location: 17h 45m 40.04s Status: Offline Points: 2585 |
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Hmm...
whatcha need is a raced, turtled, minied, MQed cocker ![]() |
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