98c/a5/x7 internal sound supressing kit

So, after reading all of the above, I really see no difference between executing a one-person ambush and being an "ambush sniper."  The only reason I can see for sticking the "sniper" addendum onto the base term "ambush" is self-glorification.

The problem I have with self-glorification is that many players use it as an excuse to avoid developing their skills.  The single most annoying day I ever played in was on another noob-rich day.  There were about 4 regulars and a dozen noobs on each team.  Almost everyone of the noobs was a "sniper." The first game on offense (it was capture the flag) the majority of our noobs went into "sniper" mode and went off by themselves and "covered the flank," "watched the back trail," "established an ambush," "sniped," etc. It left 6 of us to go after the flag since we had two non-sniper newbs.  Fortunately, the other team had the same problem; most of their noobs were off "sniping" away from the flag as well.  Once we lost one of our newbs to an "ambush sniper" (who was promptly eliminated as well), we made our way unmolested to the flag by merely avoiding possible ambush sites.  We posted one player to watch our backs and attacked the flag station.  We ended up not getting the flag but eliminating all but one of their defenders.  The remaining defender moved out a bit to engage and eliminate our rear guard, then returned to the flag.  The game was eventually called because none of the "snipers" on either team would leave their hiding spots and play paintball. 

The second game went much like the first with the exception that since we were on defense, I intentionally picked a spot that I thought would force the defensive "snipers" to stay near the flag.  I was wrong.  Although the area immediately around the flag station provided good cover, the only ones who used it were the same 6 of us who actually participated in the first game.  Many of the "snipers" just went farther out to find good cover, thus completely removing themselves from the game.  One of them, who had an old piece of camouflage netting, set up in the middle of an open field (the green netting covering him contrasted with the brown grass nicely) and three of them tried to crowd into the same small bush.  Although there were a few more firefights (the three in the bush and the one in the open were quickly and uselessly eliminated and there were several one-for-one exchanges during the other teams approach), in the end the same dozen or so players slugged it out at the flag station.  We held them off and the game had to be called again due to a lack of attack by the remaining attackers.

Before the next game, we tried providing direction to the noobs, but it was futile.  They apparently considered themselves quite well trained and were extremely argumentative; this was the first day I heard the terms "ambush sniper" and "ghost flanker."  They also got quite arrogant when we asked them what the heck they were talking about. They became very condescending about our lack of knowledge/skill. (I should point out that three of the five* branches of the U.S. military were represented among the regulars and everyone else had at least 5 years of paintball skill and much more hunting experience.)  The third and fourth games went the same; except that we just called them once the people willing to play were eliminated and five minutes had gone by without hearing a shot on the field.

At this point, as there was some serious hostility between some of the team members, we changed up the teams.  The 8 regulars and 5 newbs who were actually willing to play paintball were on one team and the remaining leet-ninja-sniper-warriors (18 or so) were on the other.  Nobody had fun; they got walked over the rest of the day and it wasn't a challenge for the regulars.  Correction: I think the newbs on our team had fun; they listened, learned, and picked up a bunch of eliminations. 

One game we took their flag without firing a shot.  We avoided ambush locations on the way in then one of our very good players (the guy with the cloaking device) came around behind and surrendered both of the defenders while we attracted attention by standing in the open just out of range of the flag station.  Another game the only person we lost was shot by the defensive sniper at the flag (who was quickly taken out after he fired).  The games we were on defense were not quite as much fun because no more than 4 or 5 people ever made it to the flag station as the rest of their team was out "ambush sniping."  We ended up sending the newbs and half of the regulars out to hunt the hunters while the rest of us guarded the flag.

One of the more amusing assaults on our flag station involved the guy with the netting who got tangled in the bushes while trying to sneak up on us while wearing it.

A final thought: If a player possesses* sufficient skills, they can be tactical and ambush with any marker from a chrome plated electro speedball marker to a plastic Brass Eagle pump.

*I guess the Coast Guard counts.
**There are way to many s's (esses) in that word.


Edited by Mack - 30 September 2007 at 12:48pm

There are many posts on this forum that explain why the terms "sniper" in any form is not possible in paintball.

As soon as the "sniper" engages a target he is immediately vulnerable to effective return fire, and is eliminated very quickly.

If this were true in sniping then the phrase "One shot, One kill" should read, "One Shot, One Kill, and die"

So in other words...the only thing a noob sniper is good for is eliminating another noob, and then being eliminated by the non-noobs.
Which may explain why all non-noobs like to play with other non-noobs.

Just because many people think it is so does not make it so, as before all but a few thought the world was flat and the sun went around the Earth, even after proving it false they stood to their theories for a great length of time.

A sniper is probably going to remain as still as a statue to have good follow through and to not be noticed by the recieving party since they are imediatly vulnerable to return fire and have to remain hidden to stay alive.

Their guns until recently have been no better than the standard infantry weapon with a few modifications.  If we go back in time a bit to use the WW2 standard since that is what I have studied the most, there are exceptions but the other guns were either the same or similar caliber and considering they stick with their own countries' weapon the English were issued Enfields, an Englsih sniper would have an Enfield with a scope.  The Americans 1903 or an M1, American sniper a M1 (rare) or a 1903 with a scope.  The Germans, a 98K, German sniper a 98K with a scope.  The Russians a Moisin-Nagant, Russian sniper a Moisin-Nagant with a scope.  So logically if the standard paintballer has a 98C and one has a 98C with a scope how does that not make him a sniper?  Considering it is not one of those guys who only played paintball a few times in their backyard against some soda cans on a saw horse and then bolted everything possible to their gun.

I know all paintball guns shoot the same distance and such but, so did the infantry weapons of the WW2 era and before, and by your guys logic that would make them not a sniper?  In the Civil War muskets which were smoothbore and fire balls just like a paintball gun, and on top of that leave a huge cloud of smoke and were much louder, I believe were equiped with telescopic sights and were used with some degree of combat effectivness.  Would these not be considered snipers?  I know the ranges and format of paintball doesn't make for effective "sniping" but I think the tactics can be applied in certain scinarios to great effect.

Originally I laughed off the "sniper" guys from before as "noobs" or whatever, but after thinking about it with logic I can't see how they couldn't be considered snipers or marksmen, those who do it correctly that is.  To adress the post earlier of the new guys just clinging to one bush and the other guy with his camo tarp or whatever, they were obviously new players.  The new guys I play with are always slow to advance for some reason and sometimes I lose my half my team way back the beginning since they decided to crawl the whole way.  They are obviously inexperienced and shouldn't be considered as an example.  I have played matches where the other person was wearing only woodland camo BDUs and they managed to wedge themselves in between a tree with a bush next to it making himself nearly invisable.  He was waiting there and I was walking twords his position and I got shot from the far left of my peripheral vision just to give you an idea of the orientation.  I called myself out but looked around to see if I could tell where it came from.  The only reason I saw him was because he got up and moved.  As far as I can tell there are those who use sniper tactics in paintball.  Using discipline in stratagy and success is based on eliminating important targets with the least amount of shots possible while maintaining stealth.  As in real life there are very few that can do this right, I can't even do it that well and stopped trying a while back, but unfortunitly for paintball those that fail will be back the next round goofing it up again.

The issues is the word "sniper" and the connotations it carries because of popular media.  There is no arguing that 99.9% of the people who call themselves paintball snipers envision themselves as a ghillie-clad invisible predator who stalks the field eliminating hapless opponents at will without ever being seen or shot at.  That is just not the reality of the game.  The truth is the majority of these individual's are much closer to my insurgent example; they have varying degrees of success at hiding and ambushing players who are generally even less experienced than themselves.  With this in mind, perhaps a different nomenclature is required to identify them on the paintball field.

Calling them sneaky insurgents would carry a negative meaning, but we need to stay with a designation that relates to/explains what they do.  Personally, I think designated marksman actually fits quite well; although I am sure it would also be claimed by people who couldn't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn.  "Stealthy Ambush Specialist" isn't bad either, but the acronym SAS is already taken. When acronyms are considered, designated marksman (DM), ambush sniper (AS), and ghost flanker (GF) don't work all that well either.

Let's see; according to Spec Ops, there's two types of paintball snipers:  Those that use surprise and stealth to institute ambushes and those that either secure their team's flanks or assault the flanks of another team.  One uses surprise and camo to score sudden eliminations while the other basically performs as a combination security/assault element on the perimeter of the battle.

The names should be descriptive of these functions, so I recommend Surprise Utilizing Camoed Killers and Patroller Of Outer Perimeter.  Since these are mouthfuls to say in a tense paintball combat environment, the handy acronyms should be used at all times.

Edited by Mack - 01 October 2007 at 7:43pm

Sad isn't it man.

 

According to the children who attempt to boost their own ego by stating snipers don't exist, YOU don't exist and therefore must not have been the one to get those players out!

[sarcasim]

I wonder how so many players were eliminated in a game by a nonexistant player?  Perhaps all those hits were just caused by paintballs falling from the sky?  Since you don't exist because you used sniper-like-tactics and have your marker set up for silence then you must not have made any "one balls" and since accuracy is only obtained by volume, likewise you could neither exist nor could you have made any eliminations, not with ONE BALL.  Not to mention the fact that after you took your "one shot" everyone MUST have known not only your EXACT position but rained down paint on you like no tomorrow, getting you OUT adfter EVERY one of those hits. Maybe your marker was out of air and someone else made the hits?  Perhaps they were all just such noobs that they shot themselves since YOU don't exist when you use tactics like that YOU could not have goten them out right?  Not to mention the fact that as EVERYONE knows NO ONE would EVER walk by where you chose to set up, snipers just head off to a place where NO ONE will be comming and just wait until the game ends right?  Oh wait, you don't exist so you couldn't have done that either.  Possibly you never even left the starting point and fell asleep and DREAMED you took out other players?

[/sarcasim]

Anyway man, good work out there!  I still need to get up the cash to go low pressure myself for that added silence! (wife, kids, home and car payments kind of keep the "painntball" cash at a minimum) My 98C is so silent already that at over 30 ft or so the sound of the ball whizzing through the air is louder than the shot, I can't wait to see what low pressure will do to the mix!  Keep on snipeing and watch the non-believers TAKE THE WALK as they wonder where the balls are comming from!  Must be falling from the sky since YOU don't exist man!!

 

Edited Note:  I got bored, so I decided to go back through the original post and identify the poster's different techniques in this debate with different font colors as explained in the list below:

• Name calling/insults - green font
• Random ranting - pink font
• Facts/science - blue font
• Logic - would remain in black font

Once I started, I quickly realized that completing this task would leave the post looking like a wrecked rainbow and would probably make it difficult for others to decipher which comment belonged to whom. (It would also be a lot of work.)

I decided on the following simplified font color scheme:

• Original poster
• Childish stuff (i.e. name calling, insults, ranting, unsupported ego trips about "sniper superiority") - black font
• Valid facts and effective logical arguments - blue font
• My replies - red font
  

RedDragon1313 wrote: Sad isn't it man. According to the children who attempt to boost their own ego by stating snipers don't exist, . . . Exactly how is this an ego boost?  Logic would dictate that the one getting their ego boosted is the one who argues that they are something that does not exist, thus ensuring their "specialness." . . . YOU don't exist and therefore must not have been the one to get those players out! [sarcasim] For future reference, it's "sarcasm." I wonder how so many players were eliminated in a game by a nonexistant player?  Perhaps all those hits were just caused by paintballs falling from the sky?  Since you don't exist because you used sniper-like-tactics . . . . . . which are more correctly referred to as "ambushing."  (But that wouldn't provide the same sensation of self-aggrandizement now would it?)  The whole vehemence with which the snipers defend their undefendable position is linked to this overwhelming need to feel better about themselves.  The very terms of their argument prove it:  They use "accuracy" while others "spray and pray" and they use "stealth and tactics" while others just rush in.  Obviously they are better and can't stand being told they aren't. and have your marker set up for silence then you must not have made any "one balls" . . . Anyone who surprises anyone else, whether from ambush or due to distraction, can make a single shot elimination. . . . and since accuracy is only obtained by volume . . . Supporting my statement above regarding the superiority complex related to paintball sniping. . . . likewise you could neither exist nor could you have made any eliminations, not with ONE BALL.  Not to mention the fact that after you took your "one shot" everyone MUST have known not only your EXACT position but rained down paint on you like no tomorrow, getting you OUT adfter EVERY one of those hits. Probably, that happens a lot to campers.  Another possibility is that the so called sniper made his one shot elimination and immediately ran away.  If he was hit, then each team lost someone and there was no advantage.  If he got away, then he did so after eliminating one whole random member of the other team who was probably a noob traveling alone; thus providing a huge advantage for his team. Maybe your marker was out of air and someone else made the hits?  Perhaps they were all just such noobs that they shot themselves since YOU don't exist when you use tactics like that YOU could not have goten them out right?  Of course he could have got them out.  The difference is there is nothing that generally differentiates such so called sniping from a basic one each ambush. Not to mention the fact that as EVERYONE knows NO ONE would EVER walk by where you chose to set up . . . Ummm . . . so your saying that "snipers" just camp and wait for some random unlucky soul to come by.  . . . snipers just head off to a place where NO ONE will be comming and just wait until the game ends right?  Oh wait, you don't exist so you couldn't have done that either.  Possibly you never even left the starting point and fell asleep and DREAMED you took out other players? Now that's just being silly.  Of course he went on the field, the only part that was a dream was his glorius "Tom Beringer" impersonation where he always turns the tide of the game by himself. (More accurately, the interpretation of it as such by others as I did not get the I'm an uber-leet sniper vibe from the original poster.) [/sarcasim] See previous note regarding spelling. Anyway man, good work out there!  I still need to get up the cash to go low pressure myself for that added silence! (wife, kids, home and car payments . . . Demonstrated grammar, spelling, a lack of coherent/logical argumentation and an apparent non-understanding of the difference between facts and hyperbole/assertions leads me to believe that the claim of "wife, kids" etc. was merely an unsuccessful attempt to bolster the posters credibility. . . . kind of keep the "painntball" cash at a minimum) My 98C is so silent already that at over 30 ft or so the sound of the ball whizzing through the air is louder than the shot, I can't wait to see what low pressure will do to the mix!  Keep on snipeing and watch the non-believers TAKE THE WALK as they wonder where the balls are comming from!  Must be falling from the sky since YOU don't exist man!!

Where Pirate1650 and CtchofDay make good points is in the usefulness of sniper-like tactics (stealth) in woodsball. They are absolutely correct in that being stealthy and flanking, which I'm quite fond of myself when playing, are useful skills/actions.  But the use of stealth and flanking does not make one a sniper.  If you take the Spec-Ops position of Ambush Sniper and Ghost Flanker and drop the cool part of the names, the descriptive part that remains explains exactly what they do; ambush and flank.  These are basic infantry tactics, used by infantry around the world.  The "Ghost" and "Sniper" parts are merely marketing hype; the paintball "Ambush Sniper" is doing what almost everyone else does and is no more a real sniper than the "Ghost Flanker" is a real ghost.  The only thing that makes most paintball snipers different from the rest of the players is that they have a marginally more effective camouflage.  I say marginally because of the issues involved with matching ghillie to terrain and the fact that they may be expected to move and engage much more frequently than real snipers.

Edited by Mack - 17 October 2007 at 11:56am

Red, everything you have ever said here has been disputed logim,cally and with much information to back up each of the counter arguments.

The only thing you have done is get some attitude and accuse everyone of upping their ego and following the herd. I'm laughing, but it isn't with you.

As for making your Tippmann Quieter,... a low pressure kit, e-bolt kit and a barrel with good porting will help negate some of the noise.

Pirate1650 wrote: I usually just read the posts here and try to glean some knowledge, one thing I learned was to stay out of the sniper debate (which I'm going to break here) but isn't there a position in an infantry squad called a marksman which would be closer to what is being described than a sniper? Correct me if I'm wrong but a sniper is usually some guy with a spoter who has a large rifle like a Remington 700 or whatever, and they sneak around hiding and such ideally eliminating each target with one shot while remaining unseen.  A marksman is a guy in the squad with a standard issue weapon but with some optics attached.  Like the M-16 being standard issue, then one or two guys in the squad being the marksmen would have M-16s with a small scope or sight of some kind, they can usually land a better shot with the optics and can provide accurate fire support to the squad providing some of the benifits of having sniper support but without actually having to have a sniper attached to the squad. Thus, I would assume this infamous "paintball sniper" to actually be filling the role of marksman since they are using the same standard issue technology (a paintball gun limited to 280fps or so) with possibly some better sights or modification to provide accurate fire support.  However I can also see the case for the other definition of sniper since it has been used to describe an enemy unit hidden in some spot to surprise the enemy.  Also, if I saw a paintball "sniper" and possibly spoter in full ghillie gear with optics and what not, although I would find that hard to play in and boarderline foolish if you position was compromised considering the dynamics of paintball, I would assume them to be filling the role of sniper.  They obviously have no range advantage but since they are emulating and taking the tactical approach of sniper what else can you call them.  Although not for me since I am impatiant and like to get up close and scuffle it out, if it works for them, hey, good luck to them, and let them play "sniper". Something to think about: In WW2 the allies used Springfield '03s, M1 Garands and Enfields.  An allied sniper would have an accurized version of one of these guns with a scope.  They used the same cartrige and the same gun giving them no real range advantage as far as the projectile but a further useful range advantage due to their better sights and training.  Some prefered open sights and even carried a secondary weapon incase they got up close. Okay, I don't think I really even understand the point I was driving at but hopfully you got something new out of what I provided

There is a giant difference between a marksman and a sniper. You can't be a paintball sniper, but you could be a paintball marksman.

A sniper stalks targets for days, hardly moving the whole time.

A marksman is attached to a squad and his job it to engage targets that are out of the effective range for the rest of the squad.

You can't really compare the two in a sniper argument because their roles are completely different.

YOU BRING DAT SMART PARTS DOWN!

 

Srsly...