home defense question.

Best Home Defence is a Good Home Offense. Why A Mine Field and Automated Turrets are the way to go.

ThatGuitarGuy wrote: 1? What? That whole answer didn't even make sense.  Give us facts if you're going to argue.

Who are you again?

Fine, I'll just make sure my wife and I both take the Last Stand perk in case we're taken down.

Susan Storm wrote: I agree that there are legitimate concerns about the effectiveness of non-lethal weapons, including bean bags. My point here was simply that given an option (and assuming all else is equal) I would just as well not kill anybody - including somebody breaking into my house.  I'm not looking for legal excuses to go a-killin'.

Maybe YOU aren't.

Rottergotterdam wrote: 1. No...simply...no. That's so far from correct that...it's simply laughable. Most of the people I fought in Iraq...no, these are some guys with AK-47s...so...yeah, wow...that--I can't even begin to try and dissect how wrong that is. 2. So then we're 1-1, one evil for one evil...it's an even trade...but the chances of your overpenetrating bullet killing a loved one is...low because, as I said, unless your bullet hits the head or heart, they probably won't die. The over-penetrating bullet will probably yaw and tumble...

1? What? That whole answer didn't even make sense.  Give us facts if you're going to argue.

Rottergotterdam wrote: notXXscared wrote: Rottergotterdam wrote: I just have a question to ask regarding home defense... If you, in your home, have the option of chosing a handgun or a shoulder-fired weapon, why would you chose a handgun? A handgun fires a low-powered round with less accuracy than any rifle or shotgun (accuracy in this case will be defined as "hitting your target"). A handgun is easier to carry all day. It's short and light. But nobody I know would go into a fire fight with a handgun if they could brining a shotgun or rifle.     How accurate does it need to be if you were in a house? I have no doubt the pistol is accurate enough... It's not like your picking him off, it would be room to room combat, maybe 20 feet at the most. Again, I have no doubt that you could do this on a static range or that the pistol will be adequite... For that type of environment, a pistol is ideal. And yet SWAT and countless other military groups use sub-machineguns or carbines as a primary weapon for this same environment...not pistols for some reason. It's easy to maneuver without a long barrel that would just get in the way; What do you mean get in the way? Does the barrel some how block your shot? it's a waste, since that barrel provides tighter accuracy, which you DON"T need in such close quarters). If you have to shoot someone from behind cover, you may only get two inches of exposure...if they grab a family member, you may only get two inches... A pistol isn't sparratic and shoots all over the place, you can still hit a person from such close range pretty easily. I never said that they did, I have shot a pistol before. And I don't doubt you can hit someone, but when you are shooting at a moving target while moving under stress...it's a bit harder. And statistically, you won't put more than two shots into someone (and they statistically will live) when using a pistol. Accuracy is always good, but the difference at 20 feet is going to be negligible. So my 0.2" groups with my AR from 20 feet verses 3.0" from 20 feet using a 1911 is somehow negligible? And you want a low powered round..No...A bullet has to be able to penetrate at least eight inches. You may only get a shot at a weird angle. If you hit their arm, you want it to get into their organs still, not stop on the bone... high powered rounds go through people and can hurt innocents, low powered shmoosh 70% of the time, a hollow point round will expand in a pistol. And you worry about over-penetration but what about the bullets that miss your target? Are they less lethal to your loved ones than over-penetrating shots? and do a lot more damage at close range: knock down power baby. Knock down power is a myth. By the laws of physics, every force has an equal and opposite reaction (recoil). Even without springs nad recoil reducing systems, the power of a rifle will not knock you down (okay, some may, but the basic 5.56mm and most 7.62mm won't). Actually, the only reason people drop is because they know they have been shot, and there are plenty of recorded incidencts where a person has been shot but has not felt the shot and continues without being knocked down. A pistol (or anything) will not, by force, knock someone down. You are aiming for the head or the heart, or you are trying to induce massive blood loss. A pistol, at 9mm vs. 5.56mm has a bigger chance to do this, yes, but...well, read below... A pistol will not do more damage at close range. At 2700fps (up to around 70 yards on an M16 with a 20" barrel) the bullet, even FMJ, will fragment...these fragments can travel up to one yard (in the case of a pig being shot in the hind leg but the fragment that killed the pig was found in the heart). Even from beyond 70 yards, 5.56mm have a tendancy to yaw and tumble. All of this can be found with some search on Google by the way.

SWAT goes up against much more dangerous threats than your average house burglar, and the sizes of their environments vary. Thus, the reason for the use of submachine guns and carbines. If you're going to be maneuvering through your house, unless you live in a mansion with wide hallways and large doorways, a pistol would be much easier to use than a rifle.

wrote: And you worry about over-penetration but what about the bullets that miss your target? Are they less lethal to your loved ones than over-penetrating shots?

Yes. If a loved one if hiding behind cover, and one of your shots misses, that over-penetrating bullet may go through the material your loved one is hiding behind and hurt/kill him or her.

notXXscared wrote: Rottergotterdam wrote: I just have a question to ask regarding home defense... If you, in your home, have the option of chosing a handgun or a shoulder-fired weapon, why would you chose a handgun? A handgun fires a low-powered round with less accuracy than any rifle or shotgun (accuracy in this case will be defined as "hitting your target"). A handgun is easier to carry all day. It's short and light. But nobody I know would go into a fire fight with a handgun if they could brining a shotgun or rifle.     How accurate does it need to be if you were in a house? I have no doubt the pistol is accurate enough... It's not like your picking him off, it would be room to room combat, maybe 20 feet at the most. Again, I have no doubt that you could do this on a static range or that the pistol will be adequite... For that type of environment, a pistol is ideal. And yet SWAT and countless other military groups use sub-machineguns or carbines as a primary weapon for this same environment...not pistols for some reason. It's easy to maneuver without a long barrel that would just get in the way; What do you mean get in the way? Does the barrel some how block your shot? it's a waste, since that barrel provides tighter accuracy, which you DON"T need in such close quarters). If you have to shoot someone from behind cover, you may only get two inches of exposure...if they grab a family member, you may only get two inches... A pistol isn't sparratic and shoots all over the place, you can still hit a person from such close range pretty easily. I never said that they did, I have shot a pistol before. And I don't doubt you can hit someone, but when you are shooting at a moving target while moving under stress...it's a bit harder. And statistically, you won't put more than two shots into someone (and they statistically will live) when using a pistol. Accuracy is always good, but the difference at 20 feet is going to be negligible. So my 0.2" groups with my AR from 20 feet verses 3.0" from 20 feet using a 1911 is somehow negligible? And you want a low powered round..No...A bullet has to be able to penetrate at least eight inches. You may only get a shot at a weird angle. If you hit their arm, you want it to get into their organs still, not stop on the bone... high powered rounds go through people and can hurt innocents, low powered shmoosh 70% of the time, a hollow point round will expand in a pistol. And you worry about over-penetration but what about the bullets that miss your target? Are they less lethal to your loved ones than over-penetrating shots? and do a lot more damage at close range: knock down power baby. Knock down power is a myth. By the laws of physics, every force has an equal and opposite reaction (recoil). Even without springs nad recoil reducing systems, the power of a rifle will not knock you down (okay, some may, but the basic 5.56mm and most 7.62mm won't). Actually, the only reason people drop is because they know they have been shot, and there are plenty of recorded incidencts where a person has been shot but has not felt the shot and continues without being knocked down. A pistol (or anything) will not, by force, knock someone down. You are aiming for the head or the heart, or you are trying to induce massive blood loss. A pistol, at 9mm vs. 5.56mm has a bigger chance to do this, yes, but...well, read below... A pistol will not do more damage at close range. At 2700fps (up to around 70 yards on an M16 with a 20" barrel) the bullet, even FMJ, will fragment...these fragments can travel up to one yard (in the case of a pig being shot in the hind leg but the fragment that killed the pig was found in the heart). Even from beyond 70 yards, 5.56mm have a tendancy to yaw and tumble.

All of this can be found with some search on Google by the way.

Bravo Kayback.  Well put.

I was mainly talking about anti gun-for-self-defence, not anti gun, per se.

This has been a rather polite, non rhetoric filled, generally well written discussion about the pros and cons about firearm use.

And mostly the people posting in it are pro firearm ownership of some sort. But most of the nay sayers think you can do everything required to mean you don't ever have to use your firearm.

While I don't suggest running to the safe to get your Bernadelli single shot .22 Freestyle pistol, there are some times when things do get that bad that having a 9mm in your hand is a good thing.

I have listed all the ways my house is secure. I've even been called overly paranoid, and I've been told to move my household. All because I have said I'm willing to fight to defend my family, with lethal force if it comes down to it. I am of the honest opinion I've done everything in my power to make my house secure. If someone is inside it, it means they aren't there by mistake. If they present a threat, I am not going to fiddle around with dubious less force than they are using methods. I will employ a reasonable level of necessary force to protect those I love.

I honestly think most less than lethal, less lethal and non lethal tools are fantastic. But by the time you are employing those in a house defence scenario, you are probably better off using lethal force.

Every part of STORING a gun isn't met when you leave your 9 under the mattress. But how is it not being kept safely when you are in bed, directly over it on the mattress. Like I said, I don't use the matress approach. I use a quick access safe. But the theory is the same. If you are in the bed, you are exercising a degree of controll over the weapon. You aren't leaving it there for the entire time. If you leave it there when you go out the house, or even out the room, then I'll agree 100% you are being irrisonsible.

There is a reason why you can buy a gunsafe. Get one, use it. There are other methods you can get that'll keep firearms secure from those it needs to be (children, visitors and thieves) but will allow you to get to it if you need to.

And guns aren't always stored. So long as when they are not, they are under your direct controll, they can be at hand when needed. It is not irrisonsible to carry a gun with you.

SStorm. Sorry if I misread what you were saying. I understood it that you were advocating the use of LTL and LL weapons exclusively in place of firearms, and indeed advocated what might be interpreted as the misude of these weapons.

I don't have any direct experience with people who own guns in the States. All the exposure I have is with mostly like minded people on similar forums, and my own experience from back home.

While there are those nutjobs who are looking for the next gunfight, because of the general high levels of violent crime here it is more a real world worry that you will be a victim of crime some time in your life.

And some of us refuse to take that lying down. Many people seem to have the thought "oh well, it'll just be my turn". But even those have alarm systems, security complexes, burgular bars, security gates on the doors and dogs.

I can HONESTLY say I don't know anyone who uses a firearm as their only form of house security.

I find it absoluely mind boggling that people would leave fireams lying around unattened. That people would conceive if it!

As for animal controll with firearms, I've done it. Nothing stops a feral/stray dog from messing with your horses like a .270 Winchester at 20m. But that was on a farm, with no people around, after the dogs had left the horses. But into a paddock with people in it? madness.

I'm sorry if I'm over estimating the abilities of US gunowners, but all the self defence gun owners I know take it seriously.

This is one reason why I always include things like torches on my "dream" self deffence guns. I have a Surefire that sleeps next to my gun. You need it for pisitive identification of your target. That's what, saftey rule #3? 1)guns are always loaded, 2) never point the muzzle at anything you aren't willing to destroy 3) be sure of your target and the beyond 4) keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. Besides, how can you see your sights without the light?

I'd rather never have to shoot anything with my self defence guns either. I'm happy that I've only ever fired my carry and "house" gun on the range.

But if the need arises, I'm sure as hell not going to hesitate to use it.


Edits - Woah, 3:40am spelling sneaking up on me there, as well as the usual night shift grouchyness. I'll stop posting now.

Edited by Kayback - 10 April 2008 at 9:38pm

kayback can we see a pic of your house?

black waters base in NC is 45 mins south of me. i may swing down there to take a few courses for fun if no other reason

Blackwater Open Enrollment Courses
Introductory Pistol
Basic Pistol
Advanced Skills Handgun
Tactical Pistol I
Tactical Pistol II
NC Concealed Carry
Basic Shotgun
Pistol/Carbine

Blackwater Open Enrollment Driving Courses
Advanced Highway Safety

Bushmaster Weapons Courses
Carbine Operator
Carbine Instructor
Carbine Armorer

Mossberg Courses
Mossberg Shotgun Armorer Course

Close Quarters Defense® Courses
CQD Armed Personal Defense
CQD Women's Personal Defense

edit:omg i lost it twice...

anyways
16.5" rifled
18.5" smooth bore
26" OAL (alot of bullpups are too short)

200$ tax and a pile of paper work can get you a LEGAL SBR...bushmaster makes an 11.5" AR upper.

im thinking i might get one. they can be fun guns to shoot too. and maybe a .22lr upper for plinking.

Edited by merc - 10 April 2008 at 9:16pm