The 2016 election. |
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tallen702
Moderator Group Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11850 |
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I'm going to stop you right there. Seriously. You have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to coal and the decline and death of the industry outside of the typical "friends of coal" talking points which are out-and-out deceptive at best. Coal started dying post-WWII. For starters, the new technologies provided by the war meant that machines like continuous miners went into operation and cut the work forces in half (if not more) Two men and a machine could do the work of 10 men with traditional equipment in one-quarter the time. Add in modular conveyor equipment, high capacity loaders, and advance logistical systems and you no longer needed all the folks you did prior to the war to get MORE coal out of the ground. Nearly half of all coal mining jobs in the US were eliminated between 1950 and 1955. Once all the easily mined "high coal" was gone, strip mining started. In central Appalachia, that was in the 1960s. You need even fewer people to run a strip mine, the overhead is a lot less, and the safety regulations are easier to deal with. Again, with the advent of new types of mining and new technologies, jobs were cut in half again in the 60s. Meanwhile, production increased drastically per-capita. That trend continued up to and through the MTR process. Mountain Top Removal. Quite possibly the dirtiest, most harmful type of mining there is. MTR not only kills entire ecosystems, but it takes even fewer people to run than a traditional strip mine. See where this is going? None of these things were Government mandates. None of these advancements were made for the sake of SAVING jobs. It's always been about coal company execs getting their profits at the cost the worker, be it their safety, their health, their pay, or their livelihood. The entire coal industry was on life support for the past 50 years. Extraction became more expensive (it was always expensive in Appalachia, hence the horrid working conditions and lack of safety and security) demand continued to decrease, anyone who thought coal would survive the turn of the century was delusional. Here's the data for you: Fifteen years my butt. No EPA regulations did this. Coal companies did this, technological progress did this. Coal is dead, it's not coming back.
Very little if any. The vast majority of steel produced in the US is recycled steel anymore. That's why you don't see iron mining either. There's more than enough scrap to melt down and re-pour. Grading the scrap coming in allows companies to mix input to keep carbon levels in the proper range without having to add coke. What little they do need tends to come from specialty mines that employ very few people. The vast majority of the coal that went into making steel in the old days was thermal coal for firing the furnaces. Coke has only ever been a very small portion of the whole deal. Which just further shoots down FE's whole argument for coal. It's cheaper and more efficient to smelt with arc and induction furnaces. The electricity used to power those furnaces comes from inexpensive natural gas or nuclear plants (or in some instances, dedicated hydroelectric plants like Globe Mettalurgical's Alloy plant at Hawks Nest, WV) which brings the costs down even more. |
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tallen702
Moderator Group Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11850 |
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It should be noted that if you really want to see what unregulated free enterprise breeds, you only have to look as far as the Central Appalachian coal fields during the early 1900s. It's literally a living hell where workers are used and abused. Because of that, the largest armed insurrection since the civil war took place in mine country in the 1920s which culminated in a pitched battle where citizens of the US faced machine guns and areal bombardment by their own government.
F--- the coal companies. Edited by tallen702 - 08 December 2016 at 8:45pm |
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__sneaky__
Moderator Group Voted 2010 Most Improved horse fondler. Joined: 14 January 2006 Location: Uncertain Status: Offline Points: 10000014 |
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Edited by __sneaky__ - 10 December 2016 at 1:01pm |
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"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
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__sneaky__
Moderator Group Voted 2010 Most Improved horse fondler. Joined: 14 January 2006 Location: Uncertain Status: Offline Points: 10000014 |
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I'm not at all trying to argue that there is a very large number of people facing similar problems to what is happening in your neck of the woods. I agree that we have some serious issues to face up to. I am from rural Missouri, but I am not a farmer. My most relevant experience is that my Dad is the VP of a company that has worked in the animal feed industry for a very long time. I have been fortunate enough to have been sheltered from living in abject poverty, but I'm not wholly unfamiliar with the culture you are talking about.
My question is still - how are Donald Trump's current proposals supposed to help any of it? GMO crops? Sure. I think that will help farmers increase and maximize their annual yields using the same amount of land and potentially less need for water and pesticides - is super helpful to farmers. Education reform? Absolutely - I think that we need to make high standards of education our absolute primary civil goal as a nation. We also need to keep pushing new technologies. There are new innovations coming along, such as feed-mill redesigns, individual animal tagging and tracking using microchips and radio-frequency tagging, so you can track the health, stats and nutrition of every animal on an individual basis. Good nutrition maximizes the quality and amount of meat produced by each and every animal. Fully automated tractors that don't require a driver/farmer to even have to touch the machine. It is guided by GPS satellites - I think that will certainly help farmers. All the technology I just mentioned already exists - what else could we come up with? A tariff and some coal mines? Not quite as convinced. Edit: And as far as the quality differences go, I understand what you are trying to say. Historically, the US was a by-word for quality, I get that. However as machines replace human workers in many different work-places this will become less and less noticeable. Japan overtook our us in quality 30 year ago, and they are able to produce cars which will last longer, with fewer issues, and are able to sell them very cheaply while still profiting. We are taught about Japanese quality systems in US schools of business these days, and rightfully so! Technology changes the game. Robots are cheaper in the long run than hourly workers. They're also more efficient, faster and more accurate. Trains changed the game when they were invented - what do you think the 700 mph+ hyper loop system is going to do to transportation costs when it's eventually set up on an international scale? I just don't understand how we are supposed to shield ourselves from this stuff. Or even why we would want to do that in the first place. Edited by __sneaky__ - 10 December 2016 at 3:51pm |
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"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
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__sneaky__
Moderator Group Voted 2010 Most Improved horse fondler. Joined: 14 January 2006 Location: Uncertain Status: Offline Points: 10000014 |
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I would like to add that the purpose of my previous posts was not to shut you up, OS. I am genuinely trying to reach out and open some dialogues between myself and people who I tend to disagree with politically. I am more used to simply shrugging things off and not engaging with people who disagree with me, so I may have some work on my overall cadence.
I'm not trying to tell you that I have all the answers, and I know what is best for everyone. Education reform is a fantastic idea in my opinion. It is also as slow as molasses in December, for the people who are currently struggling to make ends meet. Please don't tell me that I'm upset about Hillary Clinton losing. Please don't explain any of my own, or "liberals" viewpoints of the world we envision ourselves in. I want to know what you think about your own situation. I want to hear what could be done to uplift the communities I'm not familiar with. I may interject if I disagree with a proposal. Again, I'm well studied in science and economics. I'm not going to consent to the idea that retrying 1950's America is useful, but that doesn't mean I'm not still willing to learn from you. Or at least trying to listen. |
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"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl
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oldsoldier
Moderator Group Crazy old guy Joined: 10 June 2002 Status: Offline Points: 6725 |
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Civilizations evolve, plain and simple, and sometimes the directions those civilizations change. My base education was a lot different in the late 50's through the 60's. We were taught the practical applications of living in a modern society. Civics and History to understand how and why we are a nation, and I was in the basic 'pipeline' based on a test, so we got practical math and science. We even had a senior class in high school on how to run a checkbook, and maintain personal finance.
I get scared when I see man on the street interviews on our college campuses where these students in many cases are clueless on simple government, like the reason for the Electoral College, and the actual process on hiw to 'change' it. I take college courses and finished my 'hobby' degree. But I take entertainment classes. History is my prime focus. I did take History of Rock and Roll and the new generation in the class had a hard time relating to the 60's and 70's, the music and the culture, almost ancient science. I asked a simple question, define the difference between The Ramones and Green Day, and even the young professor could not give a good answer. 45years ago We were where you and yours are now, We were going to change the world, make it a better place. But a war and social upheaval at home rerouted that dream. We emerged from that to raise our kids and become our father's and what We originally wanted to rebel against. Seeing man's inhumanity to his fellow man, and how political and social discourse can destroy a culture, I look back at all we could of accomplished, and now, We wait for the inevitable as we watch this new generation pretend they are original. I sit back sometimes, throw on the music of my youth and for a few seconds close my eyes, what I see is far different than what you or yours would see, but it is just the same. I observe what goes around me anymore. Living here in a college orientated society I am amazed on the behavior of the students of University of Nebraska-Lincoln. My step daughter is a senior there, and she also had a hard time as her friends the day after the election ostracized her because she did not vote for Hillary, and she does not agree to grade in classes that should have no political conformity required. The day after the election no classes as the students had to recover from the loss to me is a sign of weakness, as compared to what I had to deal with at 19-21. Economically I find it interesting that according to the standards taught I should of never succeeded in life, yet here I am, a low paid soldier, police officer, and truck driver, comfortably retired, great retirement pays, benefits and all in exchange for public service and owning small business. My backyard spur of the moment, found a need, filled that need, hobby business made $20K last year and looking at $40K+ this year. Yet people are told opertunity is no longer fair, and are owed success based on what I ask? Step daughter is already a partial 'owner' of a local winery, and her degree is directed that direction. Not a basket weaving can't find a job degree. Grapes go into one of my tiered fields this spring, 5 years from now we will have a small winery going. And her friends say that is not fair that she has my help, as they continue to search for their Mon-Fri 8-5 job at $60K because somehow they are owed that. I don't get it. BTW I have a small piece of that potential winery, nothing in life is 'free'. Just a different perspective on life, as one day I just decided to succeed, 19 years old wading through a rice paddy, and said I am going to be 'here' in 5 years, then 10 year goal, then 20year goal, and worked to get there. Politically I was born during Truman, grew up under Johnson and Nixon, accepted reality through Carter and Reagan, and understood the world by Bush I. A long road to get here, I was successful, my kids have made it as well, grandkids are in a world of hurt as their future is being used to fund today's instant need culture. My kids did not get the next new 'thing' the minute it came out, neither did I, we saved and prioritized. I paid for their post high school educations, step son and step daughter are and were in college for free based on my sacrifice and woundings during my Army career, a earned benefit, not a 'free' education. I finished college under the VA Vet Voc-Rehab based on my 100% service connected disability and I could no longer drive a truck. That too was not free, I paid for it in blood sweat and tears, but the young students and one professor thought it was unfair I got it for 'free' and could not understand it was not 'free'. I am the result of my life as a whole, based on experience and observation, I am not a follower, far more a leader, and understand for every social action there will be a reaction, and here we are with 'Trump' for an example. MY vote was anti-Hillary, not pro Trump, I voted under the concept of "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend" and my small part was to ensure Hillary did not win, mission accomplished, you win the small battles leading up to hopefully winning the war at a later date. Medically I know the end is coming here soon, I have no regrets nor am sorry for anything. Some things really should of gone different, and I made mistakes. I do remember my youth and the simple social issues we faced as compared to this new info saturated peer idiocy, based on all this social media and instant communications. Sitting in a phone booth, a long time ago, 1230AM freezing weather, talking to the girlfriend in my day, fond memories and today a totally unknown part of a culture long forgotten. Occasionally I see an old stand up phone booth, and I step inside that time machine and for a few moments, the dreams return.................. Edited by oldsoldier - 17 December 2016 at 1:31pm |
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SSOK
Moderator Group The Savior of Christmas Joined: 01 September 2005 Location: PRNJ Status: Offline Points: 5919 |
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I expect you to distill all of the bad batches of wine OS.
That's the real small business. |
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impulse418
Moderator Group off the hook four days early <3 <3 <3 Joined: 25 November 2010 Location: Phx, AZ Status: Offline Points: 3354 |
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So as someone making 50kish a year, what tax breaks can I expect? Because right now I only see myself getting reamed by tariffs coming down the pipeline.
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StormyKnight
Moderator Group Joined: 28 July 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3129 |
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After a week in office, are you of the same opinion? I have to admit I didn't expect him to jump in feet first like this.
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StormyKnight
Moderator Group Joined: 28 July 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3129 |
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The Keystone XL or the Dakota?
Edited by StormyKnight - 28 January 2017 at 7:33am |
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impulse418
Moderator Group off the hook four days early <3 <3 <3 Joined: 25 November 2010 Location: Phx, AZ Status: Offline Points: 3354 |
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Are you referring that the price of gas will go down due to volume, or the Federal tax on gas will go down?
Because if Trump wants to bring back jobs, weakening the dollar to boost exports and having gas prices get near $100 a gallon would be a good start. Only way to get those American oil wells profitable again is for oil prices to rise. The fact that I will be subsidizing new American jobs through inflation is horse **edited**, no different than raising my taxes and simply giving the money away. |
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StormyKnight
Moderator Group Joined: 28 July 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3129 |
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Um, no? When you said coming down the pipeline, I obviously failed at making a funny by mentioning the two blunted and sensationalized pipelines that have been in the news for the last several years...
Edited by StormyKnight - 28 January 2017 at 8:01pm |
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impulse418
Moderator Group off the hook four days early <3 <3 <3 Joined: 25 November 2010 Location: Phx, AZ Status: Offline Points: 3354 |
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Sorry about that, had a bad morning. My humor meter was clearly broken.
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tallen702
Moderator Group Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11850 |
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OPEC did agree to cut production recently. 1.8 Million barrels per day IIRC, Russia has also decided to cut production in their oil fields as well. They've all been feeling the pinch from low oil prices recently and I guess the Saudis have finally hurt enough financially to get with the program with their much hated neighbors. It'll probably take about a year of those kinds of cuts to use up our storage surplus and get prices to rebound to the days of the fracking and oil shale heyday, but it will go up at some point in the not too distant future. |
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agentwhale007
Moderator Group Forum's Noam Chomsky Joined: 20 June 2002 Location: Statesboro, GA Status: Offline Points: 12014 |
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Totally surprised by the speed of the executive orders, but slightly relieved by the push-back and protesting.
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tallen702
Moderator Group Hipster before Hipster was cool... Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: Under Your Bed Status: Offline Points: 11850 |
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I'm not surprised by the speed of them, being in the corporate world now for 10+ cumulative years, executive decrees move faster than most would think, it prevents them from getting bogged down by things like reason. And no, I'm not trying to be funny, it's very, very true. We even see it with my current company. It's "push this new piece of software out NOW, we'll fix it later" or "we don't care if half our company's managers aren't versed in this particular ethnic cuisine, we're going to put it front and center NOW." So it doesn't surprise me at all that someone like Trump is jumping in with no regard to public opinion or even looking at the long game, those can always be fixed later right?! As for being relieved by the push-back, I wouldn't feel too relieved yet. The ACLU and others only have so much money to use in court trying to stop some of the more egregious EOs and EAs. |
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BARREL BREAK
Moderator Group Official Jackbooted Thug Moderator Joined: 08 September 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10840 |
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Anyone surprised by the speed needs to look at a timeline of events in Germany, 1933. Fascism takes hold on a span of days and weeks, not months and years.
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agentwhale007
Moderator Group Forum's Noam Chomsky Joined: 20 June 2002 Location: Statesboro, GA Status: Offline Points: 12014 |
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It'll be rough, but according to the ACLU's PR person, they've gotten about 290,000 online individual small donations since Trump's immigration ban on Saturday, adding up to about $19.4 million in donations. Apparently they usually only get about $3 million in small individual donations all year, and it's only January. I kicked them $200, because they've got a long road ahead.
Edited by agentwhale007 - 29 January 2017 at 10:42pm |
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agentwhale007
Moderator Group Forum's Noam Chomsky Joined: 20 June 2002 Location: Statesboro, GA Status: Offline Points: 12014 |
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Apparently he kept the DOJ and Homeland Security out of the loop (Who knows if it was intentional or not) of the language of the immigration bans, which is why the whole thing has been an enforcement mess over the last 48 hours.
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agentwhale007
Moderator Group Forum's Noam Chomsky Joined: 20 June 2002 Location: Statesboro, GA Status: Offline Points: 12014 |
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