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The 2016 election.

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tallen702 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2016 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Then you have the whole "war on coal" that liberals have pushed for the past 15 years.


I'm going to stop you right there. Seriously. You have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to coal and the decline and death of the industry outside of the typical "friends of coal" talking points which are out-and-out deceptive at best.

Coal started dying post-WWII. For starters, the new technologies provided by the war meant that machines like continuous miners went into operation and cut the work forces in half (if not more) Two men and a machine could do the work of 10 men with traditional equipment in one-quarter the time. Add in modular conveyor equipment, high capacity loaders, and advance logistical systems and you no longer needed all the folks you did prior to the war to get MORE coal out of the ground. Nearly half of all coal mining jobs in the US were eliminated between 1950 and 1955.

Once all the easily mined "high coal" was gone, strip mining started. In central Appalachia, that was in the 1960s. You need even fewer people to run a strip mine, the overhead is a lot less, and the safety regulations are easier to deal with. Again, with the advent of new types of mining and new technologies, jobs were cut in half again in the 60s. Meanwhile, production increased drastically per-capita.

That trend continued up to and through the MTR process. Mountain Top Removal. Quite possibly the dirtiest, most harmful type of mining there is. MTR not only kills entire ecosystems, but it takes even fewer people to run than a traditional strip mine. See where this is going? None of these things were Government mandates. None of these advancements were made for the sake of SAVING jobs. It's always been about coal company execs getting their profits at the cost the worker, be it their safety, their health, their pay, or their livelihood.

The entire coal industry was on life support for the past 50 years. Extraction became more expensive (it was always expensive in Appalachia, hence the horrid working conditions and lack of safety and security) demand continued to decrease, anyone who thought coal would survive the turn of the century was delusional.

Here's the data for you:



Fifteen years my butt. No EPA regulations did this. Coal companies did this, technological progress did this. Coal is dead, it's not coming back.

Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

Are they not still using coal-derrived coke for adding carbon content? 


Very little if any. The vast majority of steel produced in the US is recycled steel anymore. That's why you don't see iron mining either. There's more than enough scrap to melt down and re-pour. Grading the scrap coming in allows companies to mix input to keep carbon levels in the proper range without having to add coke. What little they do need tends to come from specialty mines that employ very few people. The vast majority of the coal that went into making steel in the old days was thermal coal for firing the furnaces. Coke has only ever been a very small portion of the whole deal. Which just further shoots down FE's whole argument for coal. It's cheaper and more efficient to smelt with arc and induction furnaces. The electricity used to power those furnaces comes from inexpensive natural gas or nuclear plants (or in some instances, dedicated hydroelectric plants like Globe Mettalurgical's Alloy plant at Hawks Nest, WV) which brings the costs down even more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2016 at 8:44pm
It should be noted that if you really want to see what unregulated free enterprise breeds, you only have to look as far as the Central Appalachian coal fields during the early 1900s. It's literally a living hell where workers are used and abused. Because of that, the largest armed insurrection since the civil war took place in mine country in the 1920s which culminated in a pitched battle where citizens of the US faced machine guns and areal bombardment by their own government.

F--- the coal companies.

Edited by tallen702 - 08 December 2016 at 8:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2016 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Fact is, the US system is rigged to help other countries. You can see it easily just by looking around at what is available to you and at what price. 

No, market factors are different in every country. Supply and Demand ultimately cause labor to be dirt cheap in other parts of the world - and we are taught how to do math in business school.

I know the stuff at Walmart is cheap and made in China. That isn't because we have rigged the system. That's because the majority of consumers prefer to pay less money for the things that they buy - even if it comes at a certain cost to quality. Walmart does their own buying and sourcing. They don't have to have it approved by the President or anything. (Yet.)

For example. It is illegal to ship lithium batteries through the US postal service. 

As someone who builds batteries in a factory every day - that is probably because lithium-ion batteries have a tendency to catch on fire and explode given proper conditions. 

And yet, you can go right now to ebay, buy lithium batteries for pennies on ebay and they will come to you SHIPPED from china or japan or another country and the cost to buy them AND ship them will be less than you can ship them the other direction one way. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Quantity-4-TrustFire-10440-600mAh-3-7V-AAA-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Battery-1XE2-/181833729391?hash=item2a5622856f:g:wTgAAOSwPcVVzY2t

If you took this package, and slapped a address in china on it and took them to the post office (who just delivered them to your home) you would be told the minimum to ship them would be in excess of $10, and they don't ship lithium batteries...

But, they can do it coming to us. 

First of all, as far as I could make out - the US Postal service was never involved in the shipping process. FedEx was mentioned at one point though. Ignoring this for a moment...

The lithium ion batteries you linked are AAA sized. Which are an exception to the shipping restrictions listed on eBay's website. They are technically allowed to be shipped with consumer electronics, according to their shipping rules, you are allowed to ship up to AA sized batteries. You are more than welcome to look at rules and restrictions of their International Shipping program here: http://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/shipping/global-shipping.html#m17-2-tb3

Aside from that exception, batteries are specifically listed on their prohibited items to be shipped.

Then you have the whole "war on coal" that liberals have pushed for the past 15 years. because the ozone layer (oh wait, that was global cooling that caused that from freon, remember that... that was the last "climate" scare that gained them millions and caused us to lose a good source of cooling). So because of co2 emissions we have to get rid of coal. That caused all the miners who dug coal to lose their jobs. As we had to then ship our coal out of our country, and the taxes on coal fired became too much to have it which decimated the rust belt. As most factories use coal to run their equipment as it was cheap and easy to get. Paying huge electic bills to a utility was silly for a company that could just install a coal powered generator and make their own power. So most paper companies were coal run. 

Ban coal, and the paper companies left the country... We lost 3 here in my town. That had been here for over 100 years each and the typical pay was over $25 an hour for factory jobs there... 

Not having a accurate understanding of a scientific issue, is not an argument against that issue. I don't mean that to be condescending, but I'm not going to play that game with you today.

Those jobs are now gone, but hey, we have more taco bell jobs...

Economists don't make the rules, mate. They just study the factors and processes involved - and then (try to) use that information to make the best possible decision for the given circumstances.



Edited by __sneaky__ - 10 December 2016 at 1:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2016 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

My contention on the American worker is also diverse. Here in Nebraska I am in the corn/soybean belt where during the recent harvest the farmers were out 15-20 hours a day harvesting and weighing the crop as the bins filled and the transportation to the mills flowed. They were working all these hours no 'overtime', self sustaining in insurance and medical plan needs, and banking on the price not fluctuating and making a small 'profit' per bushel. So the 'overtime' and benefits promises by polititians mean nothing.

I have a Honda CRF250L, was not made in Marysville,OH by American workers or in Japan, but in Malaysia, and the quality control reflects. Looked at a Harley Davidson Street 500, not made in York, PA or Milwaukee, WI, but India, and again quality control reflects.

I am retired and have a 'hobby' business that if I went legal, the regulations and insurance, and other required costs would make it almost unprofitable. I run a beginners MX track here at the 'farm' and a 5 gal pail is hung on the entry gate. Somehow around 5 pm each day we are open I just happen to look at the bucket and there are quite a few $20 bills in it, how it happens no clue, wink, wink. I found a need, developed the market, and here we are, and I 'employ' the local kids at $11 an hour also picked up by the employee as it is laying on the ground just before dad picks them up, to do safety flagging and other chores on the days we are open. It is a shame I have to do it this way, but all the regulations as stated means no 'profit' and no improvements, so what is the point of running the business? Last year June to mid November approximately 20K, but fuel cast for machinery, the dirt moving equipment, the prepatory hours, it would not be worth it 'legally', that is one of the issues I find the Democrats refuse to address for the small business owner.

I have been a soldier, a cop, a truck driver, a in the office worker for a major trucking company, and now retired. HAve had several garage hobby businesses, and just do not see Democrats helping. When they tell me the money I put into Social Security is a 'benifit' when I have paid into their SS system for years is also a bone of contention.

Again watching Nebraska in the OmaLinc area repeat the mistakes of NYC and the lower commuter counties, I can't help by wonder what people think. They want low cast goods and services, high pay, and can not understand that with that higher pay comes higher pricing for their goods and services. The want all these alternative energy sources but NIMBY none of it in their back yard. The y want more 'free' stuff' and for the life of them can not figure out that someone else pays for their 'free' stuff.

I finished college in 2009, just a 'hobby' degree, as am too old and physically unable to 'work' per the employers liability regulations. And I sat in those classrooms with 18-25year olds all expecting a high paying mon-fri job that day after they graduate. Dreams and goals are fine, but the reality of life is not so kind.

And now I find it fascinating, when I was 19 I was wadding through rice paddies with someone out there trying to kill me, and all without 'safe places' and other social and cultural idiocy kids need today to cope with something as simple as your gal lost an election.

I am an old guy, 10-15 years left on this ride, hopefully. I no longer fear for my future, nor my kids, the grandkids totally different story, as the instant satisfaction needs of today at the cost of future generations that scares me.

Remmember I saw what the Hillary 'promise' did to central NY, made it far worse, as her only goal was the next rung on the ladder to President, the people of the State of New York were not even a real concern to her. Nor were many of those Red flyover states in 2016, that she could not even try to communicate with, just the priority of the areas dependent on government and the entitlements therein and would vote Blue no matter what. We out here in Nebraska are and always will be nothing to the East and West Coast coffee house pretend, and I will say it, 'Liberal' intellectuals who have no clue the amount of 'education' it takes to grow that corn, or soybeans, and raise that feed cattle crop that feeds them. And nor do they care, as long as it is in their supermarket, why bother caring how it got there. Regulate the hell out of it, and hey why did the price go up, that's not fair, people got to eat, that is the political logic that should scare you to death.


I'm not at all trying to argue that there is a very large number of people facing similar problems to what is happening in your neck of the woods. I agree that we have some serious issues to face up to. 

I am from rural Missouri, but I am not a farmer. My most relevant experience is that my Dad is the VP of a company that  has worked in the animal feed industry for a very long time. I have been fortunate enough to have been sheltered from living in abject poverty, but I'm not wholly unfamiliar with the culture you are talking about. 

My question is still - how are Donald Trump's current proposals supposed to help any of it?

GMO crops? Sure. I think that will help farmers increase and maximize their annual yields using the same amount of land and potentially less need for water and pesticides - is super helpful to farmers.

Education reform? Absolutely - I think that we need to make high standards of education our absolute primary civil goal as a nation. We also need to keep pushing new technologies. There are new innovations coming along, such as feed-mill redesigns, individual animal tagging and tracking using microchips and radio-frequency tagging, so you can track the health, stats and nutrition of every animal on an individual basis. Good nutrition maximizes the quality and amount of meat produced by each and every animal. Fully automated tractors that don't require a driver/farmer to even have to touch the machine. It is guided by GPS satellites - I think that will certainly help farmers. All the technology I just mentioned already exists - what else could we come up with?

A tariff and some coal mines? Not quite as convinced.



Edit: And as far as the quality differences go, I understand what you are trying to say. Historically, the US was a by-word for quality, I get that. However as machines replace human workers in many different work-places this will become less and less noticeable. Japan overtook our us in quality 30 year ago, and they are able to produce cars which will last longer, with fewer issues, and are able to sell them very cheaply while still profiting. We are taught about Japanese quality systems in US schools of business these days, and rightfully so!

Technology changes the game. Robots are cheaper in the long run than hourly workers. They're also more efficient, faster and more accurate. Trains changed the game when they were invented - what do you think the 700 mph+ hyper loop system is going to do to transportation costs when it's eventually set up on an international scale? I just don't understand how we are supposed to shield ourselves from this stuff. Or even why we would want to do that in the first place.


Edited by __sneaky__ - 10 December 2016 at 3:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2016 at 11:00am
I would like to add that the purpose of my previous posts was not to shut you up, OS. I am genuinely trying to reach out and open some dialogues between myself and people who I tend to disagree with politically. I am more used to simply shrugging things off and not engaging with people who disagree with me, so I may have some work on my overall cadence.

I'm not trying to tell you that I have all the answers, and I know what is best for everyone. Education reform is a fantastic idea in my opinion. It is also as slow as molasses in December, for the people who are currently struggling to make ends meet. 

Please don't tell me that I'm upset about Hillary Clinton losing. Please don't explain any of my own, or "liberals" viewpoints of the world we envision ourselves in. I want to know what you think about your own situation. I want to hear what could be done to uplift the communities I'm not familiar with.

I may interject if I disagree with a proposal. Again, I'm well studied in science and economics. I'm not going to consent to the idea that retrying 1950's America is useful, but that doesn't mean I'm not still willing to learn from you. Or at least trying to listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2016 at 3:25pm
Civilizations evolve, plain and simple, and sometimes the directions those civilizations change. My base education was a lot different in the late 50's through the 60's. We were taught the practical applications of living in a modern society. Civics and History to understand how and why we are a nation, and I was in the basic 'pipeline' based on a test, so we got practical math and science. We even had a senior class in high school on how to run a checkbook, and maintain personal finance.
I get scared when I see man on the street interviews on our college campuses where these students in many cases are clueless on simple government, like the reason for the Electoral College, and the actual process on hiw to 'change' it.

I take college courses and finished my 'hobby' degree. But I take entertainment classes. History is my prime focus. I did take History of Rock and Roll and the new generation in the class had a hard time relating to the 60's and 70's, the music and the culture, almost ancient science. I asked a simple question, define the difference between The Ramones and Green Day, and even the young professor could not give a good answer.

45years ago We were where you and yours are now, We were going to change the world, make it a better place. But a war and social upheaval at home rerouted that dream. We emerged from that to raise our kids and become our father's and what We originally wanted to rebel against. Seeing man's inhumanity to his fellow man, and how political and social discourse can destroy a culture, I look back at all we could of accomplished, and now, We wait for the inevitable as we watch this new generation pretend they are original. I sit back sometimes, throw on the music of my youth and for a few seconds close my eyes, what I see is far different than what you or yours would see, but it is just the same.

I observe what goes around me anymore. Living here in a college orientated society I am amazed on the behavior of the students of University of Nebraska-Lincoln. My step daughter is a senior there, and she also had a hard time as her friends the day after the election ostracized her because she did not vote for Hillary, and she does not agree to grade in classes that should have no political conformity required. The day after the election no classes as the students had to recover from the loss to me is a sign of weakness, as compared to what I had to deal with at 19-21.

Economically I find it interesting that according to the standards taught I should of never succeeded in life, yet here I am, a low paid soldier, police officer, and truck driver, comfortably retired, great retirement pays, benefits and all in exchange for public service and owning small business. My backyard spur of the moment, found a need, filled that need, hobby business made $20K last year and looking at $40K+ this year. Yet people are told opertunity is no longer fair, and are owed success based on what I ask? Step daughter is already a partial 'owner' of a local winery, and her degree is directed that direction. Not a basket weaving can't find a job degree. Grapes go into one of my tiered fields this spring, 5 years from now we will have a small winery going. And her friends say that is not fair that she has my help, as they continue to search for their Mon-Fri 8-5 job at $60K because somehow they are owed that. I don't get it. BTW I have a small piece of that potential winery, nothing in life is 'free'.

Just a different perspective on life, as one day I just decided to succeed, 19 years old wading through a rice paddy, and said I am going to be 'here' in 5 years, then 10 year goal, then 20year goal, and worked to get there. Politically I was born during Truman, grew up under Johnson and Nixon, accepted reality through Carter and Reagan, and understood the world by Bush I. A long road to get here, I was successful, my kids have made it as well, grandkids are in a world of hurt as their future is being used to fund today's instant need culture.

My kids did not get the next new 'thing' the minute it came out, neither did I, we saved and prioritized. I paid for their post high school educations, step son and step daughter are and were in college for free based on my sacrifice and woundings during my Army career, a earned benefit, not a 'free' education. I finished college under the VA Vet Voc-Rehab based on my 100% service connected disability and I could no longer drive a truck. That too was not free, I paid for it in blood sweat and tears, but the young students and one professor thought it was unfair I got it for 'free' and could not understand it was not 'free'.

I am the result of my life as a whole, based on experience and observation, I am not a follower, far more a leader, and understand for every social action there will be a reaction, and here we are with 'Trump' for an example. MY vote was anti-Hillary, not pro Trump, I voted under the concept of "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend" and my small part was to ensure Hillary did not win, mission accomplished, you win the small battles leading up to hopefully winning the war at a later date.

Medically I know the end is coming here soon, I have no regrets nor am sorry for anything. Some things really should of gone different, and I made mistakes. I do remember my youth and the simple social issues we faced as compared to this new info saturated peer idiocy, based on all this social media and instant communications. Sitting in a phone booth, a long time ago, 1230AM freezing weather, talking to the girlfriend in my day, fond memories and today a totally unknown part of a culture long forgotten. Occasionally I see an old stand up phone booth, and I step inside that time machine and for a few moments, the dreams return..................

Edited by oldsoldier - 17 December 2016 at 1:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2016 at 12:19pm
I expect you to distill all of the bad batches of wine OS.

That's the real small business.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2017 at 10:51am
So as someone making 50kish a year, what tax breaks can I expect? Because right now I only see myself getting reamed by tariffs coming down the pipeline.
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Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

A Trump presidency would probably just be him handing control over to congress and being a do-nothing style presidency like the late 1800s. Trump has given no indication he actually cares about doing anything as president, he just likes the attention.

After a week in office, are you of the same opinion?  I have to admit I didn't expect him to jump in feet first like this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2017 at 7:32am
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

So as someone making 50kish a year, what tax breaks can I expect? Because right now I only see myself getting reamed by tariffs coming down the pipeline.
The Keystone XL or the Dakota?


Edited by StormyKnight - 28 January 2017 at 7:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2017 at 10:20am
Are you referring that the price of gas will go down due to volume, or the Federal tax on gas will go down?

Because if Trump wants to bring back jobs, weakening the dollar to boost exports and having gas prices get near $100 a gallon would be a good start. Only way to get those American oil wells profitable again is for oil prices to rise.

The fact that I will be subsidizing new American jobs through inflation is horse **edited**, no different than raising my taxes and simply giving the money away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2017 at 8:00pm
Um, no?  When you said coming down the pipeline, I obviously failed at making a funny by mentioning the two blunted and sensationalized pipelines that have been in the news for the last several years...

Edited by StormyKnight - 28 January 2017 at 8:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse418 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 2:05am
Sorry about that, had a bad morning. My humor meter was clearly broken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by impulse418 impulse418 wrote:

Only way to get those American oil wells profitable again is for oil prices to rise.


OPEC did agree to cut production recently. 1.8 Million barrels per day IIRC, Russia has also decided to cut production in their oil fields as well. They've all been feeling the pinch from low oil prices recently and I guess the Saudis have finally hurt enough financially to get with the program with their much hated neighbors.

It'll probably take about a year of those kinds of cuts to use up our storage surplus and get prices to rebound to the days of the fracking and oil shale heyday, but it will go up at some point in the not too distant future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by StormyKnight StormyKnight wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

A Trump presidency would probably just be him handing control over to congress and being a do-nothing style presidency like the late 1800s. Trump has given no indication he actually cares about doing anything as president, he just likes the attention.

After a week in office, are you of the same opinion?  I have to admit I didn't expect him to jump in feet first like this.

Totally surprised by the speed of the executive orders, but slightly relieved by the push-back and protesting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:



Totally surprised by the speed of the executive orders, but slightly relieved by the push-back and protesting. 


I'm not surprised by the speed of them, being in the corporate world now for 10+ cumulative years, executive decrees move faster than most would think, it prevents them from getting bogged down by things like reason.

And no, I'm not trying to be funny, it's very, very true. We even see it with my current company. It's "push this new piece of software out NOW, we'll fix it later" or "we don't care if half our company's managers aren't versed in this particular ethnic cuisine, we're going to put it front and center NOW." So it doesn't surprise me at all that someone like Trump is jumping in with no regard to public opinion or even looking at the long game, those can always be fixed later right?!

As for being relieved by the push-back, I wouldn't feel too relieved yet. The ACLU and others only have so much money to use in court trying to stop some of the more egregious EOs and EAs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 9:48pm
Anyone surprised by the speed needs to look at a timeline of events in Germany, 1933. Fascism takes hold on a span of days and weeks, not months and years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

 
As for being relieved by the push-back, I wouldn't feel too relieved yet. The ACLU and others only have so much money to use in court trying to stop some of the more egregious EOs and EAs.

It'll be rough, but according to the ACLU's PR person, they've gotten about 290,000 online individual small donations since Trump's immigration ban on Saturday, adding up to about $19.4 million in donations. Apparently they usually only get about $3 million in small individual donations all year, and it's only January. 

I kicked them $200, because they've got a long road ahead. 



Edited by agentwhale007 - 29 January 2017 at 10:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

So it doesn't surprise me at all that someone like Trump is jumping in with no regard to public opinion or even looking at the long game, those can always be fixed later right?!

Apparently he kept the DOJ and Homeland Security out of the loop (Who knows if it was intentional or not) of the language of the immigration bans, which is why the whole thing has been an enforcement mess over the last 48 hours. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2017 at 11:15pm
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