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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2008 at 5:54pm

Still, wouldn't it be better to add 100 feet to your range as opposed to maybe getting a couple of inches in accuracy?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thejudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 1:42am
Well the J&J helps actually hit the target.  I have noticed people with Apex an dFlatline go through more paint making people get down but still using more paint to hit them.  Just my opinion though.  And I am speaking from personal experience with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Commander_Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Greeg Greeg wrote:

Still, wouldn't it be better to add 100 feet to your range as opposed to maybe getting a couple of inches in accuracy?

No, the flatline and apex barrels increase the range of the paintball, but decrease the accuracy. So you can shoot farther,... but you are less likely to make contact with someone using a flatline or apex barrel than using an accurate barrel or barrel kit.

Additionally due to the longer flight time of the paintball when you do hit someone, the paintball will be moving at a slower velocity. Thereby making the likely hood of a long distant shot (which is the entire purpose of an apex or flatline barrel) actually breaking less than shooting within the range of a standard paintball barrel.

The flatline and Apex barrel's only advantage of increased range is useless in speedball games or small fields since all players start within range of one another. On larger, woodsball/ scenario oriented fields there is usually brush, trees, and structures that obscure any long distance shots. This means that even though you might have a marker capable of longer range shots than other players, the terrain will generally prevent you from shooting that far.

So it comes down to which set up is better...

A barrel that is accurate, and within the usual spectrum of paintball ranges, or a barrel that shoots farther, but is less accurate, has less of a chance of a hit breaking, and can only have its advantage be used in very specific field conditions... I think the standard barrel or barrel kit wins.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 12:11pm

Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

... a long distant shot (which is the entire purpose of an apex or flatline barrel)

Not at all.

I have and love a Flatline (two, actually) and an Apex, and I play fairly aggressively.  I hardly ever longball.

The main REAL benefit of the Flatline is not the added distance, but the flat trajectory.  Point and shoot.  No vertical adjustment.  No worrying about whether your trajectory has a clean path through the trees.  If you can see it, you can shoot it.

This is HUGE in the woods, due to shrubbery and trees.  With a straight barrel you always have to pray that your balls will somehow curve between the leaves.  With the Flatline you don't have that worry.  With the Flatline you can also shoot UNDER bushes along the ground - impossible with a straight barrel.

Even for speedball this is an advantage.  When engaging multiple targets at different ranges with a Flatline, you don't have to adjust for the distance difference.  This makes it easier to hit your targets when your snap-shooting skills are not good enough to immediately make the adjustment (which is most of us).

I have played with Flatlines in the woods and in up-close speedball, and it works well in both cases.  True - if you clamp down your gun next to a Freak, the Freak will usually have better groupings, but I don't shoot my guns clamped down.

Same goes for the Apex.  Its main purpose is not distance, but versatility.  It suffers against the Flatline in terms of flat trajectory, but gains the advantage of intentionally curving shots.  This takes some practice to do well, but can be truly devastating both in the woods and on the speedball field.

To write off the Flatline and Apex as longball barrels is incorrect.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

Additionally due to the longer flight time of the paintball when you do hit someone, the paintball will be moving at a slower velocity. Thereby making the likely hood of a long distant shot (which is the entire purpose of an apex or flatline barrel) actually breaking less than shooting within the range of a standard paintball barrel.



Incorrect.  The spin imparted to the ball from the F/L or Apex creates a boundary layer of turbulent air around the ball.  This layer reduces drag and produces the lift which together result in the straight trajectory.  A side effect of this reduction in drag is that the balls from the backspin barrel do maintain velocity at least as well as, and in some cases better (dependent upon velocity/rpms) than balls from a regular barrel.  However, when these shots do lose their remaining velocity they tend to do so rapidly.

For further information on this I suggest searching the terms "Bernoulli Effect" and "Reynolds Number."


Edited by Mack - 18 March 2008 at 1:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Commander_Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Rambino Rambino wrote:

Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

... a long distant shot (which is the entire purpose of an apex or flatline barrel)

Not at all.

I have and love a Flatline (two, actually) and an Apex, and I play fairly aggressively.  I hardly ever longball.

that is your personal style... it does nothing to negate the fact that the major selling point of the flatline is its increased range over other barrels.

The main REAL benefit of the Flatline is not the added distance, but the flat trajectory.  Point and shoot.  No vertical adjustment.  No worrying about whether your trajectory has a clean path through the trees.  If you can see it, you can shoot it.

This is HUGE in the woods, due to shrubbery and trees.  With a straight barrel you always have to pray that your balls will somehow curve between the leaves.  With the Flatline you don't have that worry.  With the Flatline you can also shoot UNDER bushes along the ground - impossible with a straight barrel.

Even for speedball this is an advantage.  When engaging multiple targets at different ranges with a Flatline, you don't have to adjust for the distance difference.  This makes it easier to hit your targets when your snap-shooting skills are not good enough to immediately make the adjustment (which is most of us).

I have played with Flatlines in the woods and in up-close speedball, and it works well in both cases.  True - if you clamp down your gun next to a Freak, the Freak will usually have better groupings, but I don't shoot my guns clamped down.

Same goes for the Apex.  Its main purpose is not distance, but versatility.  It suffers against the Flatline in terms of flat trajectory, but gains the advantage of intentionally curving shots.  This takes some practice to do well, but can be truly devastating both in the woods and on the speedball field.

To write off the Flatline and Apex as longball barrels is incorrect.

...and as you stated other barrels are more accurate, using the flatline is a matter of preference. Anyone that is used to their gear can shoot just as accurately with another barrel that does not "offer flat trajectory", actually they can probbaly do it more accurately since the barrel naturally groups the shots closer together.

Correct me if I am wrong as I have never used an apex... but don't you have to adjust your barrel to get it to curve shots... which not only takes some time in  a game, but will also effect the accuracy... and therefore isn't the wisest/ safest thing to do either?

My intent is not to attack the flatline or apex barrels, but if a new player is askign what to get,... and its between an equally as good 50 dollar barrel, or a 100 dollar barrel that is 70% gimmick,... well I am going to suggest the 50 dollar barrel.



Edited by Commander_Cool - 18 March 2008 at 3:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Commander_Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

Additionally due to the longer flight time of the paintball when you do hit someone, the paintball will be moving at a slower velocity. Thereby making the likely hood of a long distant shot (which is the entire purpose of an apex or flatline barrel) actually breaking less than shooting within the range of a standard paintball barrel.



Incorrect.  The spin imparted to the ball from the F/L or Apex creates a boundary layer of turbulent air around the ball.  This layer reduces drag and produces the lift which together result in the straight trajectory.  A side effect of this reduction in drag is that the balls from the backspin barrel do maintain velocity at least as well as, and in some cases better (dependent upon velocity/rpms) than balls from a regular barrel.  However, when these shots do lose their remaining velocity they tend to do so rapidly.

For further information on this I suggest searching the terms "Bernoulli Effect" and "Reynolds Number."

I vaguely know the principles,... I will rephrase my point to make it accurate.

Most people who buy a flatline think that is is a highly accurate barrel that offers long range shots. Many people long ball with a flatline because they feel they can make shots farther away, however longer shots are more difficult to make, and with many people firing near, to outside the effective range of the flatline barrel the hits they do have, are likely to bounce.

While that is true with every barrel, the selling point of the flatline barrel is its "amazing range", but if it is harder to eliminate players at greater ranges, it is a better investment to buy an accurate barrel or barrel kit, and play agressively,... garunteeing you eliminations at much closer rangers.

I personally do not feel the infrequent opportunities to use its increased range justify the price, and that the reasoning of buying the marker (increasing your range) encourages players to longball, and camp during gameplay.

As stated previously I feel that the increased range of the flatline barrel is a gimmick, as the increased range is rarely an asset on fields where players start within range of one another, or shrubs, trees, and structures prevent people from firing outside the effective range of a standard paintball barrel; let alone have open space in which the flatline barrel is an asset. For those situations in which it might be useful, using cover and playing aggressively are much more effective at eliminating players than the increased range the flatline barrel offers.



Edited by Commander_Cool - 18 March 2008 at 3:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 3:41pm

I can't speak to the "selling point" of the Apex/Flatline.  I can only speak to the benefits.  The situations where the extended range is a significant benefit arise only rarely - the situations where the trajectory/curve is a benefit arise quite regularly.

Marketing aside, the main real-world benefits of these barrels has little to do with long-balling (although it is fun to rain down 15bps on a guy who thought he was out of range).

Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

...and as you stated other barrels are more accurate, using the flatline is a matter of preference. Anyone that is used to their gear can shoot just as accurately with another barrel that does not "offer flat trajectory", actually they can probbaly do it more accurately since the barrel naturally groups the shots closer together.

Certainly true, under good circumstances.  I would not expect experienced speedballers to be interested in these barrels.  In the woods, however, the ability to shoot through brush is a really big deal.

Quote Correct me if I am wrong as I have never used an apex... but don't you have to adjust your barrel to get it to curve shots... which not only takes some time in  a game, but will also effect the accuracy... and therefore isn't the wisest/ safest thing to do either?

You do have to adjust, but it isn't a big deal.  If you normally keep the barrel on a middle "flatline" setting, it takes about 1 second to switch it to a side curve or dive-bomb.  And since you are now shooting at your opponent from an unexpected direction you will have plenty of time to walk your shot in.  The Apex is a real game-changer in those stalemates where you and your opponents have each other pinned down but can't get a clean shot.  It does take some getting used to, but it is well worth the effort.

Quote My intent is not to attack the flatline or apex barrels, but if a new player is askign what to get,... and its between an equally as good 50 dollar barrel, or a 100 dollar barrel that is 70% gimmick,... well I am going to suggest the 50 dollar barrel.

I will normally also suggest the straight barrel, just for simplicity - but these barrels are not "70% gimmick".  Not at all.  They offer significant benefits for the experienced player, and for the rookie a Flatline can be very nice and easy - no need to do ball/barrel matching, just point and shoot. 

Remember, to get that good kit accuracy you have to have a good match - the Flatline doesn't care about match.  The Flatline is much more forgiving with paint - you just play.  This also can be significant, particularly if the field paint is iffy.  With my Freak, I can get good ball-on-ball accuracy only with a good match.  If the paint is irregular I will get bad accuracy and barrel breaks.  With the Flatline I will get the same accuracy and still no barrel breaks. 

The Flatline and Apex are not for everybody, but they are also very misunderstood and incorrectly maligned by those that do not understand them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2008 at 4:46pm
Very interesting posts.  I agree with Rambino that the ability to shoot below the foliage is huge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2008 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Greeg Greeg wrote:

Very interesting posts.  I agree with Rambino that the ability to shoot below the foliage is huge.


You can get a similar effect by tipping the F/L to either the left or right.

Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

Most people who buy a flatline think that is is a highly accurate barrel that offers long range shots.

Oh just go ahead and say it; given the discussion topic everyone would probably let it slide.  Many new players who purchase Flatlines think they are buying a super-accurate uber-sniper barrel.

Many people long ball with a flatline because they feel they can make shots farther away, however longer shots are more difficult to make, and with many people firing near, to outside the effective range of the flatline barrel the hits they do have, are likely to bounce.

All very true.  This is why the best long range utilization of a Flatline is not single-shot eliminations, but accuracy by volume suppressive fire.  An experienced Flatline user who chooses his field of fire correctly can create a lot of disruption to the opposing teams progress and potentially turn the tide of a game without even making any eliminations.

While that is true with every barrel, the selling point of the flatline barrel is its "amazing range", . . .

Based on the advertising, I agree.  However, Rambino is right, the flat trajectory is an equally important advantage.

. . . but if it is harder to eliminate players at greater ranges,

It's not harder, it just takes more paint.  But, the same statement can apply to normal barrels as well.  Shots fired from non-backspin barrels lose velocity throughout their trajectory, are affected by various environmental factors and strike at a glancing angle (unlike Flatline-fired paint) which disperses contact energy making breaks even less likely.

it is a better investment to buy an accurate barrel or barrel kit, and play agressively,... garunteeing you eliminations at much closer rangers.

Close range eliminations are pretty much guaranteed anyway.  The barrel doesn't really matter that much.

I personally do not feel the infrequent opportunities to use its increased range justify the price, . . .

Then you shouldn't get one.

. . . and that the reasoning of buying the marker (increasing your range) encourages players to longball, and camp during gameplay.

True to a certain extent.  But many of those people would camp/longball anyway because they are super-uber-tactical-ninja-stealth-snipers.

As stated previously I feel that the increased range of the flatline barrel is a gimmick, . . .

Have to disagree there.  If it didn't work as advertised it would be a gimmick; since it works, it is a feature.  I've used the Flatline in both roles, close engagement and long-range suppression, and have been quite pleased. 

. . . as the increased range is rarely an asset on fields where players start within range of one another, . . .

Those must be really boring fields.  I'm glad I don't normally play woods games like that.

. . . or shrubs, trees, and structures prevent people from firing outside the effective range of a standard paintball barrel; let alone have open space in which the flatline barrel is an asset.

That is the situation where the flat trajectory is truly useful.  I've played in brush where any shot requiring arc had no chance of making it to the target.  The Flatline rules in those situations.  It is very amusing/rewarding to observe the frustration of opponents who have just watched a stream of their paint break on overhead foliage when the Flatline shots fly under the same obstacles and hit them.

For those situations in which it might be useful, using cover and playing aggressively . . .

Aggressive play = elimination when neither the charging players or their supporting fire can threaten the individual with the Flatline who is unloading into their midst as they approach.

. . . are much more effective at eliminating players than the increased range the flatline barrel offers.

It's not just the range; although the range can be quite nice.  I like to watch people do the "Flatline dance" when I open up on them at longer ranges.  This is what I call the scramble for cover that occurs when the opposition suddenly realizes that they actually are in range.  When some victims are foolish enough to stay in position/push forward because they figure the paint won't break at the range in question all that is required is to put enough paint on them to eventually hit a hard surface.




Edited by Mack - 19 March 2008 at 5:05pm
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