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Mack
Moderator Group Has no impulse! control Joined: 13 January 2004 Location: 2nd Circle Status: Offline Points: 9906 |
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Somebody asked if there was anything else to say, and I think there
is. I'll start by stating my position on snipers in paintball:
Balls up fists, jumps up and down and screams "Are too!" repeatedly. Just kidding . I had to do that since it seems to be the way most of the pro-sniper crowd state their position. Seriously, I think there are snipers (or a semi-equivilant style that can be called that for the sake of simplicity) in paintball. But they are not the ghillie-suited wonders who hide in the bushes and wait for the occassional lucky ambush; and they are not the guys who build up high elimination counts by staking out the reinsertion points and shooting helpless people the minute they step onto the playing field. (A personal dislike of mine-I consider such behavior to be completly without honor.) They are instead the rare and disciplined individuals who know their marker thoroughly and head into the woods with both a specific mission and the skills to carry it out with minimal risk of detection and return fire. When I say "rare" individual I mean that I've encountered just one person who fits my definition since the first time I played this game back in 1985. (And, for those who are wondering, I don't consider myself a sniper.) He doesn't use a pump gun or wear a ghillie. He alway moves through the woods silently and unseen. (Sometimes I think he got ahold of Predator cloaking technology from somewhere.) He is a deadly shot both with aimed shots and with snapshooting and usually he prefers to just execute effective one-man ambushes while defending the team's flanks. When he goes into "sniper" mode though I have seen him use the terrain to his advantage to the point where he takes his one shot, gets his one elimination, disappears, and repeats to his hearts content without ever having a single shot fired at him. In this mode he meets every requirement of the sniper definition put forth previously on this forum. (I believe the definition was provided by Sr Crewchief, but I'm not positive.) The funny part is when you talk with this guy he doesn't seem to consider himself all that good. He just does what he does and doesn't get all egotistical about it. So, with all that said, while I belive sniper's in paintball do exist, I also believe the majority of the "snipers" who get themselves flamed on this forum for their insistance that they posess such supernatural skills are nothing more than posers. Most, with further maturity and experience, will develop a non-sniper playing style that is more effective for them. Some will get disillusioned that they aren't Tom Berenger and will quit. A very few, probably less than one in ten thousand will actually become the player they invision themselves as now; and they will probably look back at their earlier selves and laugh. There are three things which were stated in the anti-sniper arguments that I intend to protest: That patience has no place in the game, that if you hide in the brush you are automatically a camper, and that you are not using teamwork unless you can see your team and are communicating with them. As an older player with knee and back problems who doesn't move as quick as the majority of the folks I play with, patience is a major part of my game. When I execute an ambush, I want the most eliminations I can possibly get out of it. To fire to soon would probably get one elimination, maybe two, but would allow others to get away. Acting at just the right moment can result in multiple eliminations and do my team much more good. I must admit though there is such a thing as waiting to long to act. I once found myself ambushing a six-person squad from the center of their formation because I waited to long for the "perfect" opportunity. (I got one, two of them eliminated each other in the crossfire and the rest painted me thoroughly.) I prefer to establish ambushes as opposed to hunting other players down, does this make me a camper? I don't think so. It means I've discovered, much to my annoyance, that sometimes I can't stalk as fast as my target moves so it's better to figure out where they're going, then go there and wait for them. (It's very frustrating to be behind folks who have no clue I'm there and have them get away because they can stampede through the woods much more quickly than I can quietly hunt them.) Finally, just because I can't see my team and am not talking to them does not make me "not a team player". One of the things you can count on at our field is that the defending team will have pre-positioned a flanker or two well away from the flag station. We play on approximately 100 acres of varied terrain so it is easy for these flankers to avoid the offensive team as it inserts. They stay out of sight until the offensive team is completely involved with the flag defenders, then sweep in from behind and cripple the attack. To counter this some of us more disciplined players utilize a rear-guard strategy. (Sometimes, depending on terrain, we also post flank security as well.) We will sweep the area that offers the most likely avenue of concealed approach to the rest of the team once they engage the defensive forces at the flag. During the sweep one of us will drop out of the formation-hopefully unnoticed-in the midst of thick cover and wait. The actions taken if an enemy force comes in from behind varies depending upon the size of the force and the terrain. (I actually surrendered a couple of players by doing this. They were as intent on the backs of my team mates as my team was on assaulting the flag.) Yes, this could probably be called camping, and, yes it can be very boring when no one tries to sneak up on the rest of the team. But it is vital to the team; it both secures the rear from attack and allows the rest of the team to place all of their concentration on taking the flag. Edited by Mack |
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Darur
Platinum Member Stare directly into my avatar... Joined: 03 May 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9178 |
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Real Men play Tuba
[IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
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Mack
Moderator Group Has no impulse! control Joined: 13 January 2004 Location: 2nd Circle Status: Offline Points: 9906 |
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P.S. Did you notice the cool blue color I used to contrast with your red text? Edited by Mack |
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Darur
Platinum Member Stare directly into my avatar... Joined: 03 May 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9178 |
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Bleh, that ones going to take a little time to reply to
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Real Men play Tuba
[IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
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Mehs
Moderator Group An Hero Joined: 27 March 2004 Location: Neutral Zone Status: Offline Points: 3907 |
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o_O
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[IMG]http://i27.tinypic.com/1538fbc.jpg">
Squeeze Box ☣ |
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Mack
Moderator Group Has no impulse! control Joined: 13 January 2004 Location: 2nd Circle Status: Offline Points: 9906 |
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Sorry, I tend to ramble ocassionally. Please don't feel required to reply. We've both logically and politely (rare in a dreaded sniper debate) stated our opinions and the reasons for them. We should probably admit that neither of us is going to convince the other of our position. When you step back and look at it you will realize that my position on this is a lot closer to yours than you might think. When someone claims to be a paintball sniper, my first instinct is to throw the BS flag. If they do it on the internet, there is really no way to prove the point either way so I don't worry about it. When they do it at our local field I make sure I'm playing on the other team and go looking for them to see if they're as good as they think they are. You believe in the absolute non-existence of paintball snipers. I don't believe in absolutes; out of the 9.8 million people (as of 2003) who play paintball worldwide, there is bound to be a sniper or two.* I will not accept that there isn't unless I hear it from someone who has played against everybody else. So 99.99% of the we agree and the other 0.01% of the time one of us (I think it's you **) is wrong. I post in sniper debates because it's a free country and every paintball player should be allowed to play whatever style they want and call it what they want. If little Billy Ghillie wants to call himself a sniper and play accordingly that's fine with me. He has the right to do that, but he also needs to realize that other people may not agree with his point of view and they have the right to share this with him. When I have a problem is when either side gets carried away and resorts to insults, flaming, or nit-picking irrelevant points.*** What BG must also realize is that if he is ineffective at the way he plays he is going to hear a lot of "It's okay, you can be on the other team, we don't mind." Such peer pressure usually ends up modifying ones behavior in one way or another; he may change his style or he may get frustrated and quit. It is all his choice. I have a few final thoughts on the whole paintball sniper**** debate thing:
* 1st Note: It is not the annoying 12 year old running around dressed like a bush chanting "I'm a leet sniper, oh my god you're gonna be so owned old dude!". ** 2nd Note: Yes, I know you think I'm the one that's wrong. *** 3rd Note: Normally, I consider flaming someone about spelling, sentence structure and similar things to be irrelevant; however, when someones communications skills are so ineffective that I just can't figure out why they are trying to say, I tend to consider them too stupid to have a valid point and ignore their input until they say or write something understandable. **** 4th Note: I probably should have pointed out earlier that I generally say "paintball sniper" specifically because I do not consider sniping in paintball to be the same as what military/law enforcement snipers do. It's a game, and while there are similarities to military/police equivalents, paintball sniping is not the same thing anymore than the paintball grunt leading the charge is the same as a US Army infantryman or the support gunner using the superior range of a flatline to provide interdiction fire on an area target is the same as a Marine heavy machine gunner. P.S. See, I was right when I said I tend to ramble. P.P.S. Let's both give ourselves a big hand for remaining profanity, insult, and flame free and, also, reasonably mature, throughout this discussion. Edited by Mack |
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Darur
Platinum Member Stare directly into my avatar... Joined: 03 May 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9178 |
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I have to say, its a breath of fresh air to read a response that doesnt call me a moron or a liar.
I have a bit of a reply drafted already, Its just the day you posted this I got hit with a bunch on reports and work, havent had much time. |
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Real Men play Tuba
[IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1859/newsmall6xz.jpg"> PH33R TEH 1337 Dwarf! DONT CLICK ME!!1 |
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Mack
Moderator Group Has no impulse! control Joined: 13 January 2004 Location: 2nd Circle Status: Offline Points: 9906 |
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Yeah, I saw your essay over in T&O. I started getting ideas before I read down to where you had already turned it in so I did stuff with it anyway. Since I'm going back to school after a couple of dozen years away from that environment the practice for Comp class should be good for me.
Edited by Mack |
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sporx
Platinum Member Joined: 03 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5619 |
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people type to much.
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brihard
Platinum Member Strike 1 - Making stuff up Joined: 05 September 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 10155 |
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I'm curious as to where the assertion comes that fifty feet is the maximum effective range of a paintball marker? Through a clean flatline barrel with a good bore and paint match, shots are possible at a much greater range than that. Even with a conventional barrel, shots can be lobbed with surprising accuracy. If a player makes the effort to learn to properly use his markerto precisely place shots, then how could the ballistics of a paintball marker even come into play in a 'sniper' debate?
Granted, very few people can lob a ball at a hundred and fifty feet accurately- but I've seen it done. The ability to place shots accurately at fifty yards with a paintball marker can exercise serious control over a portion of the battlespace- be it a geographical chokepoint, or a point of tactical value. If a player posessing that ability is able to find a concealed location from which to exert his control over that area, then he's in a much better position. If, furthermore, that player is able to judge the progress of the battle around him, and correctly estimate when the time is right for him to move, either to advance or to fall back to a more suitable position, then that kind of initiative and skill undoubtedly counts as teamwork- the general expectation is that a player of this level of skill will inform his team as to where he'll be going, and his goals. If I decide to 'lone wolf' it, I'll always let some trusted teammates on the same flank know- "Expect me to be about twenty meters up ahead that way; I'm gonna control the path through the ravine". Real time communication is not necessary for proper teamwork. As long as all youra ctionsa re in the ebst interest of the team as a whole, then you're using teamwork. Thus, that point becomes moot as well. Furthermore, the term 'camping' is thrown around too liberally- it's remniscent of any number of prepubescent tantrums I've witnessed back when I used to play counterstrike, and a skilled player would wait for the inevitable newbie rush around a blind corner. A control point in a defensive array is any spot where, with minimum deployment of resources, you can control or deny enemy access to a part of the battlespace. In paintball, it may, for isntance, eb the one guy with a flatline who's covering the bridge, or a small ravine, or any relevant point. Thus, is it improper for a player to guard that area, even if it should mean remaining stationary until his team has the initiative, and the momentum to carry the battle past his point ofcontrol and into enemy territory? Certianly not. Naturally, you'll want a skilled player to do this job, since it is such an important point- multiple people may not always be available, so you could have to rely on one person. It might be the guy with the A5 flatline and a firestorm crank who can hose down anyone who approaches, or it might be the guy with the Freak barrel kit who can place a shot accurately at range. In either case, cover and concealment would be in the player's best interest. If a newblet hides in a bush merely hoping someone will randomly pass through his arcs, sure, that's dumb- but if there's a realistic expectation of enemy movement through a piece of ground, it's not merely smart, but a responsibility towards your team for someone to step up and guard it, for as long as it nees to be guarded. So, if a player is intelligently placing himself during the defensive phase of a battle- or, perhaps to guard his team's flank during an offensive phase- 'camping' is certianly not an appropriate accusation. The skill of this type of play is knowing where to place yourself to be most effective, and knowing hen to move to another spot due to the evolution of the battle. And believe me, that kind of situational awareness is NOT easy.
I have to point out, Darur, that you seem to argue against 'effective one-man ambushes' as a legitimate tactic. If it's effective, what's wrong with it? You're trying to help your team win, and anything that furthers that goal effectively is a legitimate syle of play. If a player, posessing an unusual degree of skill and accuracy with his marker, places himself in a concealed position to overwatch an important part of terrain, and, in doing so, effectively engages the opponent with limited, precise fire, without fear of return fire, and furthermore keeps in tune with the actions of his team and the overall strategic objective, then what's wrong with labelling that person a 'sniper'? You don't need to make 800 yard shots to be a sniper. In modern military conflict, much 'sniping' occurs in an urban setting, with a few very skilled marksmen hiding in windows or rubble to control chokepoints, or engage enemy support teams. This often happens at very short range- under fifty yards, in some instances. I could tell a story from an urban combat exercise I was on with my unit where two of our snipers (we used Simunitions for this exercise) wiped out the better half of an enemy platoon single handedly, without being spotted or engaged, at about fourty yards' range. They werne't in an ambush setting, either- they advanced through a building to a suitable window with overwatch on the enemy building, and from there picked their shots into the enemy's main building, when the enemy was shooting from windows. But tell anyone on the exercise that they were not employed as 'snipers', and anyone with any credibility will tell you how full of **edited** you are. This situation could be easily analogous to paintball. No, we'll never see a paintball game where people are making five hundred foot accurate shots through their scoped Phantoms, but paintball can be played in a way easily parallel to the majority of modern sniping in the military context. |
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"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
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Razgriz Ghost
Gold Member Guested - Implosion Joined: 21 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1567 |
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Darur I made that thread after I saw this and others. I then made it clear in that thread that I don't care what anybody has to say about snipers anymore. Like them don't like them paintball is still a game and we should be talking about better things. Now if you feel like ripping this post apart be my guest. I've said all I wish to say on this topic.
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DBibeau855
Platinum Member IIIIIMMMMM BAAACCCKKK Joined: 26 November 2002 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11662 |
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Too...much...darur...pwnage...
/me falls over dead from so much pwnage. |
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Nutteralex
Member Joined: 22 May 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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There is sniping in paintball. I hit people from like 400 feet away. Jeeze your just jelous you don't have the skills like me.
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Please for the love of god don't get a flatline. |
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Mack
Moderator Group Has no impulse! control Joined: 13 January 2004 Location: 2nd Circle Status: Offline Points: 9906 |
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Hey I found it!! I am of course referring to the sniper criteria I mentioned above. The original poster listed 6 requirments the potential paintball sniper had to meet to be considered a sniper. They are shortened and in my own words, but I have not changed the meaning by doing so. Any difference would be in application, that is I apply the rules to the concept of being a paintball sniper, not a sniper in general. Without further ado, here is what Sr Crewchief (I believe) said a sniper must possess :
The first 3 requirements apply with varying degrees of capability to all woodsball players. We all know people who run the gamut from scary to sucky in one or more of those areas. Item 4 is a little trickier since all markers fire at a pre-determined maximum limit on most fields. The flatline is one way around this when used to engage targets in thick brush where arced return fire is not feasible. But the two people I know who best meet this criteria use different approaches with standard barrels. The gentleman I mentioned in my original post is very effective at stalking his prey and firing a single shot through a small opening in the intervening cover to get his elimination, after which a simple step to the side or back removes any chance of seeing him or returning fire at him. The other one is a young man who can lob paint in a phenomenal manner. His accuracy with single shots launched at a 30 degree or greater angle is just unbelievable. Couple this with the fact that he usually stands under a tree and fires through an opening in the canopy above him and he is able to eliminate others at long range with complete impunity. Point 5 is mainly timing, i.e. not taking your shot when your location is under observation. A quiet marker helps, but is not mandatory if the shooter is good enough to eliminate his chosen target with the first shot. (It's usually the second shot that reveals location.) Criteria 6 is the one I see the most people (not just would-be snipers) screw up on. Any engagement should not be initiated until an effective egress route (and an alternate if possible) has been selected; this applies to both lone individuals and teams. As Darur pointed out, communications is vital, so in the case of teams preparing an ambush, it is good practice to verify that everyone knows all aspects of the plan before implementing it, no matter how simple it is. P.S. I'm not trying to stir up this discussion again, I think I've already agreed to disagree with those that think differently than I do. I did however, feel obligated to post these criteria, and how I apply them, since I brought them up earlier. P.P.S. Brihard's comments got me started considering some flatline related issues: I won't hijack this thread by bringing them up here but I may start a thread specific to my questions over on the T&O forum. I would ask anyone with serious input to please keep an eye out for it. Considering the quality of their input here, I would be especially pleased to hear from Darur and Brihard. P.P.P.S. Someone mentioned "pwnage" above; I wasn't aware that this was a game where points were tallied. I don't feel "pwned", and I definitely don't think I "pwned" anybody. I just think some of us had a very good internet discussion.
Edited by Mack |
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Homer J
Member Strike 2 for drug related images Joined: 22 March 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4673 |
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bah 400 ft tahts leik, teh nuthinz, i hitz ppl frum leik a mile away. noobface. |
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Cheetos3254
Gold Member Too cheesy for mere words to describe .. Joined: 12 July 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2365 |
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Snake6
Platinum Member Outranked by guitarguy? Joined: 11 September 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11229 |
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I have so much to say on this topic, but I have to get cought up on some work... Maybe later.
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SR_Crewchief
Platinum Member Joined: 12 June 2002 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2663 |
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I like it when someone quotes me!! But if your going too please state if your paraphrasing or quoting. (relevant discussion points added at the bottom) [Dahur you've seen them before]
"In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper: · A superior marksman · Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment · The ability to approach the target without being detected · Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire · The ability to engage the target without revealing your position · The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged The first three of these points are possible in the game of paintball, but do not make you a sniper, they just take some training and practice. Let’s look at them one at a time. A superior marksman Basically someone who’s shooting skills are well above that of the average player. No big problem here, skill levels very, some people are just plain better than others. Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment This one is a little tougher. It takes knowledge of what will fool the eye into not seeing what is really there. It’s still doable though. Trained military have an advantage over the someone whose camouflage skills are solely based on hunting. Not because the non-military hunter is any less skilled but because of who the camouflage is intended to fool. But once armed with the knowledge of what the differences are this isn’t even a problem. So, yes this can be effectively applied to paintball. The ability to approach the target without being detected This one is a bigger problem. If just taken as being able to move close enough to a player that is already in place to make your shot undetected is very difficult. Since instinctively humans are hunters, our attention is automatically drawn to movement or things that are out of place. It’s takes someone that is extremely skilled in moving undected to pull this one off. But I have seen it done. I should add to this the ability to setup a position that provides an undetected position from which to shoot that covers an area you expect your opponent to move through. A basic ambush. Both require an undetected shooting position and can be effectively applied to paintball depending on skill level The last three points are where the concept of a sniper in paintball fails. Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range. Yes, that means Flatlines too. While Flatlines do have the ability, do to an aerodynamic backspin, shoot farther than other barrel systems the paintball still loses velocity at the same rate. What this means is that a paintball from a flatline loses the energy to break its shell at the same rate as one fired from a conventional barrel. The advantage of the flatline is initial flat trajectory that paintball has, which allows someone to fire under foliage that would otherwise break the ball. (The first failed point in being an effective sniper) The ability to engage the target without revealing your position Since the effective range is around 20-25m means that when you fire you have effectively revealed your general position. What I mean is this. Your shooting from such a close range that either the pop of your ball leaving the barrel or the sound of your bolt cycling (or both) will give your general position away to anyone with average hearing as far away as 40m. Unless you are only engaging 1 or 2 people or are extremely lucking you yourself can now be effectively counted as a mission kill. (The second failed point in being an effective sniper) The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged What this means is the ability move to a new shooting position after having engaged a target without being detected and counter-engaged your self. Since it’s been demonstrated that you can’t effectively engage a target without revealing your initial shooting position and exposing yourself to effective counter fire this one automatically fails. (The third failed point in being an effective sniper)" |
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Nutteralex
Member Joined: 22 May 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 267 |
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Give it up, there is no sniping in paintball. You just want to join the army but are to out of shape or to scared to get shot.
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Please for the love of god don't get a flatline. |
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brihard
Platinum Member Strike 1 - Making stuff up Joined: 05 September 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 10155 |
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I'm in the army. I can run 16 kilometers. I can carry a rifle, grenade launcher, machinegun, or pretty much anything you care to give me on a patrol or raid. I can engage a target effectively with small arms from a half kilometer's distance. I AM scared of getting shot, which is why I love frag vests and (friendly) suppression fire. I also happen to believe that there can be snipers in paintball.
Any questions? |
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"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011. Yup, he actually said that. |
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