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Mack
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Has no impulse! control
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Posted: 11 September 2005 at 8:02pm |
Somebody asked if there was anything else to say, and I think there
is. I'll start by stating my position on snipers in paintball:
Balls up fists, jumps up and down and screams "Are too!" repeatedly.
Just kidding ![](smileys/smiley1.gif) .
I had to do that since it seems to be the way most of the pro-sniper
crowd state their position. Seriously, I think there are snipers
(or a semi-equivilant style that can be called that for the sake of
simplicity) in paintball. But they are not the ghillie-suited
wonders who hide in the bushes and wait for the occassional lucky
ambush; and they are not the guys who build up high elimination counts
by staking out the reinsertion points and shooting helpless people the
minute they step onto the playing field. (A personal dislike of
mine-I consider such behavior to be completly without honor.) They are
instead the rare and disciplined individuals who know their marker
thoroughly and head into the woods with both a specific mission and the
skills to carry it out with minimal risk of detection and return
fire. When I say "rare" individual I mean that I've encountered
just one person who fits my definition since the first time I played
this game back in 1985. (And, for those who are wondering, I don't
consider myself a sniper.) He doesn't use a pump gun or wear a
ghillie. He alway moves through the woods silently and
unseen. (Sometimes I think he got ahold of Predator cloaking
technology from somewhere.) He is a deadly shot both with aimed
shots and with snapshooting and usually he prefers to just execute
effective one-man ambushes while defending the team's flanks.
When he goes into "sniper" mode though I have seen him use the terrain
to his advantage to the point where he takes his one shot, gets his one
elimination, disappears, and repeats to his hearts content without ever having a single shot fired at him. In
this mode he meets every requirement of the sniper definition put forth
previously on this forum. (I believe the definition was provided
by Sr Crewchief, but I'm not positive.) The funny part is when
you talk with this guy he doesn't seem to consider himself all that
good. He just does what he does and doesn't get all egotistical
about it.
So, with all that said, while I belive sniper's in paintball do exist,
I also believe the majority of the "snipers" who get themselves flamed on
this forum for their insistance that they posess such supernatural
skills are nothing more than posers. Most, with further maturity
and experience, will develop a non-sniper playing style that is more
effective for them. Some will get disillusioned that they aren't
Tom Berenger and will quit. A very few, probably less than
one in ten thousand will actually become the player they invision
themselves as now; and they will probably look back at their earlier
selves and laugh.
There are three things which were stated in the anti-sniper arguments
that I intend to protest: That patience has no place in the game,
that if you hide in the brush you are automatically a camper, and that
you are not using teamwork unless you can see your team and are
communicating with them.
As an older player with knee and back problems who doesn't move as
quick as the majority of the folks I play with, patience is a major
part of my game. When I execute an ambush, I want the most
eliminations I can possibly get out of it. To fire to soon would
probably get one elimination, maybe two, but would allow others to get
away. Acting at just the right moment can result in multiple
eliminations and do my team much more good. I must admit though
there is such a thing as waiting to long to act. I once found
myself ambushing a six-person squad from the center of their formation
because I waited to long for the "perfect" opportunity. (I got
one, two of them eliminated each other in the crossfire and the rest
painted me thoroughly.)
I prefer to establish ambushes as opposed to hunting other players
down, does this make me a camper? I don't think so. It
means I've discovered, much to my annoyance, that sometimes I can't
stalk as fast as my target moves so it's better to figure out where
they're going, then go there and wait for them. (It's very
frustrating to be behind folks who have no clue I'm there and have them
get away because they can stampede through the woods much more quickly
than I can quietly hunt them.)
Finally, just because I can't see my team and am not talking to them
does not make me "not a team player". One of the things you can count on at our field is that the defending team will have
pre-positioned a flanker or two well away from the flag station.
We play on approximately 100 acres of varied terrain so it is easy for
these flankers to avoid the offensive team as it inserts. They stay out of sight until the offensive team is completely
involved with the flag defenders, then sweep in from behind
and cripple the attack. To counter this some of us more disciplined players utilize a rear-guard strategy.
(Sometimes, depending on terrain, we also post flank security as
well.) We will sweep the area that offers the most likely avenue
of concealed approach to the rest of the team once they engage the
defensive forces at the flag. During the sweep one of us will
drop out of the formation-hopefully unnoticed-in the midst of thick
cover and wait. The actions taken if an enemy force comes in from
behind varies depending upon the size of the force and the
terrain. (I actually surrendered a couple of players by doing
this. They were as intent on the backs of my team mates as my
team was on assaulting the flag.) Yes, this could probably be
called camping, and, yes it can be very boring when no one tries to
sneak up on the rest of the team. But it is vital to the team; it
both secures the rear from attack and allows the rest of the team to
place all of their concentration on taking the flag.
Edited by Mack
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Darur
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Posted: 11 September 2005 at 9:16pm |
Mack wrote:
Somebody asked if there was anything else to say, and I think there
is. I'll start by stating my position on snipers in paintball:
Balls up fists, jumps up and down and screams "Are too!" repeatedly.
Just kidding .
I had to do that since it seems to be the way most of the pro-sniper
crowd state their position. Seriously, I think there are snipers
(or a semi-equivilant style that can be called that for the sake of
simplicity) in paintball. But they are not the ghillie-suited
wonders who hide in the bushes and wait for the occassional lucky
ambush; and they are not the guys who build up high elimination counts
by staking out the reinsertion points and shooting helpless people the
minute they step onto the playing field. (A personal dislike of
mine-I consider such behavior to be completly without honor.) They are
instead the rare and disciplined individuals
Wow, first things first, did you
just use the term "disciplined individual" to describe a paintballer?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. The average paintballer is a teenager 14-17 years
old, they are about as disciplined as a gnat with ADHD.
who know their marker
thoroughly
Meaning what? The rest of us
just break the thing open, snap a few parts off, slab on some oil
wherever we like, throw the parts back wherever they fit and hope the
thing works?
and head into the woods with both a specific mission
K, heres the problem with that.
Say their mission is to check the fork in the path ahead to clear it
for their team and then the team decides to take a different path
leaving the "sniper" to sit at the junction for the whole game till he
gets shot. Well, clearly the sniper (we will call him Bill) isnt
going to yell to the captin (Jim) "Hey Jim, wheres yall at?!" and Jim
wont yell 'Yo Bill, we are taking the other path, turn around".
Lack of communication = no teamwork = newb
and the
skills to carry it out
So the rest of us just run around without the slightest clue what we are doing?
with minimal risk of detection and return
fire.
Golly Gee, sounds like your average woodsballer right there.
When I say "rare" individual I mean that I've encountered
just one person who fits my definition since the first time I played
this game back in 1985. (And, for those who are wondering, I don't
consider myself a sniper.) He doesn't use a pump gun or wear a
ghillie. He alway moves through the woods silently and
unseen.
Sounds like your classic newb who runs off and does his own thing while the team works together to win the game.
(Sometimes I think he got ahold of Predator cloaking
technology from somewhere.) He is a deadly shot both with aimed
shots and with snapshooting
And the rest of us cant hit the side of a barn?
and usually he prefers to just execute
effective one-man ambushes while defending the team's flanks.
Making him your typical camper
When he goes into "sniper" mode though I have seen him use the terrain
to his advantage
Once again, classical woodsballer
to the point where he takes his one shot, gets his one
elimination, disappears, and repeats to his hearts content without ever having a single shot fired at him. In
this mode he meets every requirement of the sniper definition put forth
previously on this forum.(I believe the definition was provided
by Sr Crewchief, but I'm not positive.)
Enlighten me, whats this deffinition?
The funny part is when
you talk with this guy he doesn't seem to consider himself all that
good. He just does what he does and doesn't get all egotistical
about it.
That would probably be because he is your typical woodsballer. That
So, with all that said, while I belive sniper's in paintball do exist,
I also believe the majority of the "snipers" who get themselves flamed on
this forum for their insistance that they posess such supernatural
skills are nothing more than posers.
Hate to break it to you but all snipers are posers
Most, with further maturity
and experience, will develop a non-sniper playing style that is more
effective for them.
Yeah, its called learning that snipers dont exist and finnaly working with your team.
Some will get disillusioned that they aren't
Tom Berenger and will quit. A very few, probably less than
one in ten thousand will actually become the player they invision
themselves as now;
Only an ignorent fool will think that they are a sniper after playing as a "sniper" for a long time
and they will probably look back at their earlier
selves and laugh.
Who are we talking about? The smart guys that realize snipers dont exist or the ignorent ones that think they do?
There are three things which were stated in the anti-sniper arguments
that I intend to protest: That patience has no place in the game,
To a certain degree. The only use for patience is being cautious
that if you hide in the brush you are automatically a camper,
If you hide in brush for periods of time you are camper, yes
and that
you are not using teamwork unless you can see your team and are
communicating with them.
Yep, how are you helping your team if you arent workign with them?
As an older player with knee and back problems who doesn't move as
quick as the majority of the folks I play with, patience is a major
part of my game. When I execute an ambush, I want the most
eliminations I can possibly get out of it. To fire to soon would
probably get one elimination, maybe two, but would allow others to get
away.
That falls under timeing
Acting at just the right moment can result in multiple
eliminations and do my team much more good. I must admit though
there is such a thing as waiting to long to act. I once found
myself ambushing a six-person squad from the center of their formation
because I waited to long for the "perfect" opportunity. (I got
one, two of them eliminated each other in the crossfire and the rest
painted me thoroughly.)
I prefer to establish ambushes as opposed to hunting other players
down, does this make me a camper?
To a degree. Where is the
skill in sitting down in brush all day? I will give you that
moving to intercept another team with an ambush is smart but just
sitting down on a trail and waiting is stupid.
I don't think so. It
means I've discovered, much to my annoyance, that sometimes I can't
stalk as fast as my target moves so it's better to figure out where
they're going, then go there and wait for them. (It's very
frustrating to be behind folks who have no clue I'm there and have them
get away because they can stampede through the woods much more quickly
than I can quietly hunt them.)
Finally, just because I can't see my team and am not talking to them
does not make me "not a team player". One of the things you can count on at our field is that the defending team will have
pre-positioned a flanker or two well away from the flag station.
We play on approximately 100 acres of varied terrain so it is easy for
these flankers to avoid the offensive team as it inserts. They stay out of sight until the offensive team is completely
involved with the flag defenders, then sweep in from behind
and cripple the attack.
That is not what we are talking
about. We are reffering to when a person runs ahead of his team
or in another direction because he wants to hit another objective for
the team and in doing so seperates himself from the team and is now
worthless.
To counter this some of us more disciplined players utilize a rear-guard strategy.
(Sometimes, depending on terrain, we also post flank security as
well.) We will sweep the area that offers the most likely avenue
of concealed approach to the rest of the team once they engage the
defensive forces at the flag. During the sweep one of us will
drop out of the formation-hopefully unnoticed-in the midst of thick
cover and wait. The actions taken if an enemy force comes in from
behind varies depending upon the size of the force and the
terrain. (I actually surrendered a couple of players by doing
this. They were as intent on the backs of my team mates as my
team was on assaulting the flag.) Yes, this could probably be
called camping, and, yes it can be very boring when no one tries to
sneak up on the rest of the team. But it is vital to the team; it
both secures the rear from attack and allows the rest of the team to
place all of their concentration on taking the flag.
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Mack
Moderator Group
Has no impulse! control
Joined: 13 January 2004
Location: 2nd Circle
Status: Offline
Points: 9906
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Quote Reply
Posted: 12 September 2005 at 1:34am |
Darur wrote:
Mack wrote:
Somebody asked if there was anything else to say, and I think there
is. I'll start by stating my position on snipers in paintball:
Balls up fists, jumps up and down and screams "Are too!" repeatedly.
Just kidding .
I had to do that since it seems to be the way most of the pro-sniper
crowd state their position. Seriously, I think there are snipers
(or a semi-equivilant style that can be called that for the sake of
simplicity) in paintball. But they are not the ghillie-suited
wonders who hide in the bushes and wait for the occassional lucky
ambush; and they are not the guys who build up high elimination counts
by staking out the reinsertion points and shooting helpless people the
minute they step onto the playing field. (A personal dislike of
mine-I consider such behavior to be completly without honor.) They are
instead the rare and disciplined individuals
Wow, first things first, did you
just use the term "disciplined individual" to describe a paintballer?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. The average paintballer is a teenager 14-17 years
old, they are about as disciplined as a gnat with ADHD.
Not all paintball players are
undisciplined. (Just most of them.) As a side note, I
believe that the percentage of disciplined players in speedball is
significantly higher than in woodsball due to the formalized competion
involved. I play with several individuals (mostly well above the
average age you mention above) who I can trust not to wander off in
search of targets if they get bored covering the flank but will instead
be where they said they would be doing what they would do.
(Nothing annoys me more than to find out the guy covering my but got
bored and left. Usually this discovery is made via several
paintballs breaking on my back. The few younger players that I
trust this much all play speedball in addition to woodsball, which is
why I made the comment about discipline above.
who know their marker
thoroughly
Meaning what? The rest of us
just break the thing open, snap a few parts off, slab on some oil
wherever we like, throw the parts back wherever they fit and hope the
thing works?
Meaning, that unlike a lot of
woodsball players who don't even touch their marker except to remove it
from the trunk of the car where they through it the week before without
even cleaning it, they care for it and practice with it until it
becomes an extension of their body. (I've also noticed that
speedball players as a group tend to care for their equipment
better. I don't like speedball, but I think I'm going to have to
admit that it helps some players develop self-discipline.)
and head into the woods with both a specific mission
K, heres the problem with that.
Say their mission is to check the fork in the path ahead to clear it
for their team and then the team decides to take a different path
leaving the "sniper" to sit at the junction for the whole game till he
gets shot. Well, clearly the sniper (we will call him Bill) isnt
going to yell to the captin (Jim) "Hey Jim, wheres yall at?!" and Jim
wont yell 'Yo Bill, we are taking the other path, turn around".
Lack of communication = no teamwork = newb
I won't get into specific missions
as assigned in scenario games because that would be a cop-out which
does not apply to what I'm talking about. I'm referencing your
average weekend players. What specific missions might they have
you ask? Here are examples from situations I've seen/experienced:
- Stalking
and eliminating a certain player whose loss would cripple the opposing
team (This can be someone who is an outstanding shot or someone whose
leadership skills increase the effectiveness of those around him.)
- Controlling
key terrain (This can be anything from a choke-point such as a
bridge or path or high point or bunker which allows observation of
things your team doesn't want observed.)
- Interdiction/harrasment
(Not the normal hit and run strike anyone-even me-can pull off to be
annoying. I'm talking about the ability to get so far inside your
opponents' minds that while you may only eliminate a single individual,
you effectively remove several more from the game as they cower in fear
or fruitlessly hunt for you.)
and the
skills to carry it out
So the rest of us just run around without the slightest clue what we are doing?
Actually, yes .
J/K. However, some folks do just that. Many others have
decent to good skills; some are very good at some aspects of the game
and not so good at others; some are very good at all aspects of the
game; a very few are great at all aspects of the game. Then there
are those singular individuals that are just phenomonal at everything;
the guys you wouldn't want to run into anywhere if this was more than a
game.
with minimal risk of detection and return
fire.
Golly Gee, sounds like your average woodsballer right there.
No, it doesn't. Your average
woodsballer usually gets a few shots back at him if he engages more
than a couple of individuals, even if he surprises them. I'm
talking about finding his target, eliminating his target, and leaving;
in most cases with anyone else who happened to be nearby asking "What
just happened". In the rare cases the individual is spotted
return fire us usually impossible, either because the shot was made
down a narrow firing lane between/under/over interveining growth or
because he happened to be using a flatline that day and made the shot
under the overhanging branches at a range that prevents anyone with a
normal barrel from making an effective shot in response.
When I say "rare" individual I mean that I've encountered
just one person who fits my definition since the first time I played
this game back in 1985. (And, for those who are wondering, I don't
consider myself a sniper.) He doesn't use a pump gun or wear a
ghillie. He alway moves through the woods silently and
unseen.
Sounds like your classic newb who runs off and does his own thing while the team works together to win the game.
Most newbs don't get asked by the
field owner to limit themselves to a certain number of eliminations per
game to prevent the other team from getting discouraged.
Actually, that may explain his playing style. I know he's passed
up shots at inexperienced players so that he could engage the better
players at our field.
(Sometimes I think he got ahold of Predator cloaking
technology from somewhere.) He is a deadly shot both with aimed
shots and with snapshooting
And the rest of us cant hit the side of a barn?
That depends on the
individual. I know a kid who can make lobbed shots you wouldn't
believe but has to use accuracy by volume for close encounters. I
never miss a shot that I have a second to actually aim, but really suck
at snapshooting. (And my left handed shots wouldn't even hit the
ground if it wasn't for gravity.) He is just the best shot with a
marker of anyone I've ever met.
and usually he prefers to just execute
effective one-man ambushes while defending the team's flanks.
Making him your typical camper
Not. He hunts his prey and sets his ambushes up much as I try to do. (Just better.)
When he goes into "sniper" mode though I have seen him use the terrain
to his advantage
Once again, classical woodsballer
There are different levels of
skill in the woods. Your "classic woodsballer" can vary from
someone in cammies who chooses the wrong background to your ex-military
type who posesses and utilizes the whole gamut of tactical
woodcraft. Now, would I compare him to an Army Ranger or Marine
Sniper, no I wouldn't. But I do know that he's better than anyone
else I've played against in the woods. Additionally, the 82nd
Airborne guy that plays at our field when he's home on leave respects
the mans skills in the woods.
to the point where he takes his one shot, gets his one
elimination, disappears, and repeats to his hearts content without ever having a single shot fired at him. In
this mode he meets every requirement of the sniper definition put forth
previously on this forum.(I believe the definition was provided
by Sr Crewchief, but I'm not positive.)
Enlighten me, whats this deffinition?
As I said, I don't remember who
came up with it. I printed a copy once, but don't know what I did
with it. I was hoping that mentioning it would motivate someone
else to post it. Here's the parts I do remember (but not
word for word-sorry):
- Ability to effectively engage target without risk of return fire
- Ability to move skillfully in the woods
- Ability to ingress and egress to target site without detection
- Ability to complete missions that support the overall team goals
The funny part is when
you talk with this guy he doesn't seem to consider himself all that
good. He just does what he does and doesn't get all egotistical
about it.
That would probably be because he is your typical woodsballer. That
Actually, it's just because he's a
really decent person. Everyone at the field would understand if
he went on a huge ego trip about his skills, but he doesn't.
So, with all that said, while I belive sniper's in paintball do exist,
I also believe the majority of the "snipers" who get themselves flamed on
this forum for their insistance that they posess such supernatural
skills are nothing more than posers.
Hate to break it to you but all snipers are posers
That is just your opinion.
I've offered an opinion to the contrary. (About which you can-and
probably will-say the same thing, that's okay, I can take it, it's all
part of communication and interaction.) I have tried however to
support my opinion with examples and explanation. You will
probably not accept my point of view any more than I accept yours, but
this discussion is much better than the guys who get rude with each
other and degenerate to mis-spelled name calling.)
Most, with further maturity
and experience, will develop a non-sniper playing style that is more
effective for them.
Yeah, its called learning that snipers dont exist and finnaly working with your team.
I would change the above to
"...learning that they aren't a sniper and finding a style that works
better for them and their team."
Some will get disillusioned that they aren't
Tom Berenger and will quit. A very few, probably less than
one in ten thousand will actually become the player they invision
themselves as now;
Only an ignorent fool will think that they are a sniper after playing as a "sniper" for a long time
I'd like to think that most
paintball players would realize that attempting to play as a sniper
doesn't make them a sniper anymore than attempting to play as a "grunt"
qualifies them as a rifleman, but I've seen enough to know
better. I wonder if this is one of the reasons that the sniper
wars exist on the forum. I probably should have stated earlier
that I draw no parallels between paintball snipers and military/law
enforcement snipers.
and they will probably look back at their earlier
selves and laugh.
Who are we talking about? The smart guys that realize snipers dont exist or the ignorent ones that think they do?
Three answers:
- The guys who realized "sniping" didn't work for them and switched styles will probably find humor in their earlier actions
- The few who play so
skillfully that they occasionally play as a sniper may or may
not; my limited experience is the really good players do not
worry about style so much as effectiveness and don't tend to think of
themselves as anything other than paintball players. (This leaves
it to the rest of us mere mortals to cower in fear at their approach
and classify them to our hearts content.)
- The guys who still think
they are snipers will hide in the bushes (with most of the bad things
you said about them being applicable to their playing style) until
someone sneaks up on them and shoots them in the back. Or they
will get their "one shot-one kill" then get hunted, pinned down, and
brutally eliminated because they didn't consider the difference between
cover and concealment or plan an effective egress route.
There are three things which were stated in the anti-sniper arguments
that I intend to protest: That patience has no place in the game,
To a certain degree. The only use for patience is being cautious
Valid statement, I will just add
that caution is important because the incautious tend to get eliminated
which makes them no use to their team.
that if you hide in the brush you are automatically a camper,
If you hide in brush for periods of time you are camper, yes
I don't believe you specified
"periods of time" earlier, but I may have misunderstood. Suffice
it to say if someone is still hiding in the brush waiting for an easy
kill to wander by while their team mates are being eliminated and the
team is in danger of losing, they are campers.
and that
you are not using teamwork unless you can see your team and are
communicating with them.
Yep, how are you helping your team if you arent workign with them?
As I explain below, you are
helping your team by being where they expect you to be, providing
security or observation as appropriate. If you have to move and
you don't re-establish contact with your team so they know you're
moving, then you aren't helping them.
As an older player with knee and back problems who doesn't move as
quick as the majority of the folks I play with, patience is a major
part of my game. When I execute an ambush, I want the most
eliminations I can possibly get out of it. To fire to soon would
probably get one elimination, maybe two, but would allow others to get
away.
That falls under timeing
Part of good timing is
patience. The most blatant example of poor timing/lack of
patience would be one we've all seen: The new player who gets
excited and fires to soon from way out range, both wasting his paint
and revealing his position.
Acting at just the right moment can result in multiple
eliminations and do my team much more good. I must admit though
there is such a thing as waiting to long to act. I once found
myself ambushing a six-person squad from the center of their formation
because I waited to long for the "perfect" opportunity. (I got
one, two of them eliminated each other in the crossfire and the rest
painted me thoroughly.)
I prefer to establish ambushes as opposed to hunting other players
down, does this make me a camper?
To a degree. Where is the
skill in sitting down in brush all day? I will give you that
moving to intercept another team with an ambush is smart but just
sitting down on a trail and waiting is stupid.
I didn't say I sit in the brush
all day, but you already acknowledged that. I mention this
because of what I'm going to add next: I prefer to play in
thicker cover, mainly because anyone can run me down in open
terrain. And I do mean anyone, I got taken out by a kid less than
a third of my age last year after he chased me down around a big bush
once my PT was empty. (I used to go out with just a pistol every
once in a while to motivate me to work on my movement skills-things
went really wrong that time.)
I don't think so. It
means I've discovered, much to my annoyance, that sometimes I can't
stalk as fast as my target moves so it's better to figure out where
they're going, then go there and wait for them. (It's very
frustrating to be behind folks who have no clue I'm there and have them
get away because they can stampede through the woods much more quickly
than I can quietly hunt them.)
Finally, just because I can't see my team and am not talking to them
does not make me "not a team player". One of the things you can count on at our field is that the defending team will have
pre-positioned a flanker or two well away from the flag station.
We play on approximately 100 acres of varied terrain so it is easy for
these flankers to avoid the offensive team as it inserts. They stay out of sight until the offensive team is completely
involved with the flag defenders, then sweep in from behind
and cripple the attack.
That is not what we are talking
about. We are reffering to when a person runs ahead of his team
or in another direction because he wants to hit another objective for
the team and in doing so seperates himself from the team and is now
worthless.
Then we mostly misunderstood each
other on that point. I agree that in most cases the "lone wolf"
does not do his team a lot of good, although I will throw out one
exception to this statement. When we play double flag games it is
not uncommon for one or both teams to send the fastest runner to the
primitive bridge that crosses the creek in the middle of the
field. Yes he gets separated from the rest of the team, but his
mission is to get in place quick enough to prevent any crossings at
this point. The terrain is such that a single individual on
either side can prevent use of the bridge. The bridge is so
located that for either team to cross it and control both sides early
in the game provides an almost insurmountable advantage to that team.
To counter this some of us more disciplined players utilize a rear-guard strategy.
(Sometimes, depending on terrain, we also post flank security as
well.) We will sweep the area that offers the most likely avenue
of concealed approach to the rest of the team once they engage the
defensive forces at the flag. During the sweep one of us will
drop out of the formation-hopefully unnoticed-in the midst of thick
cover and wait. The actions taken if an enemy force comes in from
behind varies depending upon the size of the force and the
terrain. (I actually surrendered a couple of players by doing
this. They were as intent on the backs of my team mates as my
team was on assaulting the flag.) Yes, this could probably be
called camping, and, yes it can be very boring when no one tries to
sneak up on the rest of the team. But it is vital to the team; it
both secures the rear from attack and allows the rest of the team to
place all of their concentration on taking the flag.
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P.S. Did you notice the cool blue color I used to contrast with your red text?
Edited by Mack
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Darur
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Posted: 12 September 2005 at 9:34pm |
Bleh, that ones going to take a little time to reply to
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Mehs
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Posted: 12 September 2005 at 11:49pm |
o_O
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Squeeze Box
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Mack
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Posted: 13 September 2005 at 3:15am |
Darur wrote:
Bleh, that ones going to take a little time to reply to
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Sorry, I tend to ramble
ocassionally. Please don't feel required to reply. We've
both logically and politely (rare in a dreaded sniper debate) stated
our opinions and the reasons for them. We should probably admit
that neither of us is going to convince the other of our
position. When you step back and look at it you will realize that
my position on this is a lot closer to yours than you might
think. When someone claims to be a paintball sniper, my first
instinct is to throw the BS flag. If they do it on the internet,
there is really no way to prove the point either way so I don't worry
about it. When they do it at our local field I make sure I'm
playing on the other team and go looking for them to see if they're as
good as they think they are. You believe in the absolute
non-existence of paintball snipers. I don't believe in absolutes;
out of the 9.8 million people (as of 2003) who play paintball
worldwide, there is bound to be a sniper or two.* I will not
accept that there isn't unless I hear it from someone who has played
against everybody else. So 99.99% of the we agree and the other
0.01% of the time one of us (I think it's you **) is wrong.
I post in sniper debates because it's a free country and every
paintball player should be allowed to play whatever style they want and
call it what they want. If little Billy Ghillie wants to call
himself a sniper and play accordingly that's fine with me. He has
the right to do that, but he also needs to realize that other people
may not agree with his point of view and they have the right to share
this with him. When I have a problem is when either side gets
carried away and resorts to insults, flaming, or nit-picking irrelevant
points.*** What BG must also realize is that if he is ineffective
at the way he plays he is going to hear a lot of "It's okay, you can be
on the other team, we don't mind." Such peer pressure usually
ends up modifying ones behavior in one way or another; he may change
his style or he may get frustrated and quit. It is all his choice.
I have a few final thoughts on the whole paintball sniper**** debate thing:
- In Marine Sniper, the
C. W. Henderson biography of Carlos Hathcock, the author noted a
fundamental difference between Army and Marine sniper operations in
Hathcock's area of operations. Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock normally
inserted into the bush singularly or by dropping away from a patrol and
working his way to specific targets. The Army snipers mentioned in
the book were choppered to hilltops where they waited for targets of
opportunity.
- Law enforcement snipers are
generally not snipers in the same way military snipers are.
Generally they do not have to locate and stalk their targets in the
same manner their miltary counterparts do. Their shots are
normally made at much shorter ranges and because of this many use the
same weapons that members of the assault team carry, just equipped with
a scope.
But you never see the Marines
telling the Army "You don't have real snipers, you need to call them
something else or we're gonna come over there and kick your butt", and
I've never heard the military tell the police "Yo cop-dudes, that's not
sniping." They don't do this because they put the roll being
filled into the context of the activity occuring. I think that's something a majority of the paintball community need to learn to do.
* 1st Note: It is not the annoying 12 year old
running around dressed like a bush chanting "I'm a leet sniper, oh my god you're gonna
be so owned old dude!".
** 2nd Note: Yes, I know you think I'm the one that's wrong.
*** 3rd Note: Normally, I consider flaming someone about
spelling, sentence structure and similar things to be irrelevant;
however, when someones communications skills are so ineffective that I
just can't figure out why they are trying to say, I tend to consider
them too stupid to have a valid point and ignore their input until they
say or write something understandable.
**** 4th Note: I probably should have pointed out earlier that I
generally say "paintball sniper" specifically because I do not consider
sniping in paintball to be the same as what military/law enforcement
snipers do. It's a game, and while there are similarities to
military/police equivalents, paintball sniping is not the same thing
anymore than the paintball grunt leading the charge is the same as a US
Army infantryman or the support gunner using the superior range of a
flatline to provide interdiction fire on an area target is the same as
a Marine heavy machine gunner.
P.S. See, I was right when I said I tend to ramble.
P.P.S. Let's both give ourselves a big hand for remaining profanity,
insult, and flame free and, also, reasonably mature, throughout this
discussion. ![](smileys/smiley32.gif)
Edited by Mack
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Darur
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Posted: 14 September 2005 at 1:17am |
I have to say, its a breath of fresh air to read a response that doesnt call me a moron or a liar.
I have a bit of a reply drafted already, Its just the day you posted
this I got hit with a bunch on reports and work, havent had much time.
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Mack
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Posted: 14 September 2005 at 2:10am |
Yeah, I saw your essay over in T&O. I started getting ideas before I read down to where you had already turned it in so I did stuff with it anyway. Since I'm going back to school after a couple of dozen years away from that environment the practice for Comp class should be good for me.
Edited by Mack
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sporx
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Posted: 14 September 2005 at 11:51am |
people type to much.
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brihard
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Posted: 15 September 2005 at 2:03pm |
I'm curious as to where the assertion comes that fifty feet is the maximum effective range of a paintball marker? Through a clean flatline barrel with a good bore and paint match, shots are possible at a much greater range than that. Even with a conventional barrel, shots can be lobbed with surprising accuracy. If a player makes the effort to learn to properly use his markerto precisely place shots, then how could the ballistics of a paintball marker even come into play in a 'sniper' debate? Granted, very few people can lob a ball at a hundred and fifty feet accurately- but I've seen it done. The ability to place shots accurately at fifty yards with a paintball marker can exercise serious control over a portion of the battlespace- be it a geographical chokepoint, or a point of tactical value. If a player posessing that ability is able to find a concealed location from which to exert his control over that area, then he's in a much better position. If, furthermore, that player is able to judge the progress of the battle around him, and correctly estimate when the time is right for him to move, either to advance or to fall back to a more suitable position, then that kind of initiative and skill undoubtedly counts as teamwork- the general expectation is that a player of this level of skill will inform his team as to where he'll be going, and his goals. If I decide to 'lone wolf' it, I'll always let some trusted teammates on the same flank know- "Expect me to be about twenty meters up ahead that way; I'm gonna control the path through the ravine". Real time communication is not necessary for proper teamwork. As long as all youra ctionsa re in the ebst interest of the team as a whole, then you're using teamwork. Thus, that point becomes moot as well. Furthermore, the term 'camping' is thrown around too liberally- it's remniscent of any number of prepubescent tantrums I've witnessed back when I used to play counterstrike, and a skilled player would wait for the inevitable newbie rush around a blind corner. A control point in a defensive array is any spot where, with minimum deployment of resources, you can control or deny enemy access to a part of the battlespace. In paintball, it may, for isntance, eb the one guy with a flatline who's covering the bridge, or a small ravine, or any relevant point. Thus, is it improper for a player to guard that area, even if it should mean remaining stationary until his team has the initiative, and the momentum to carry the battle past his point ofcontrol and into enemy territory? Certianly not. Naturally, you'll want a skilled player to do this job, since it is such an important point- multiple people may not always be available, so you could have to rely on one person. It might be the guy with the A5 flatline and a firestorm crank who can hose down anyone who approaches, or it might be the guy with the Freak barrel kit who can place a shot accurately at range. In either case, cover and concealment would be in the player's best interest. If a newblet hides in a bush merely hoping someone will randomly pass through his arcs, sure, that's dumb- but if there's a realistic expectation of enemy movement through a piece of ground, it's not merely smart, but a responsibility towards your team for someone to step up and guard it, for as long as it nees to be guarded. So, if a player is intelligently placing himself during the defensive phase of a battle- or, perhaps to guard his team's flank during an offensive phase- 'camping' is certianly not an appropriate accusation. The skill of this type of play is knowing where to place yourself to be most effective, and knowing hen to move to another spot due to the evolution of the battle. And believe me, that kind of situational awareness is NOT easy.
darur wrote:
and usually he prefers to just execute
effective one-man ambushes while defending the team's flanks.
Making him your typical camper | I have to point out, Darur, that you seem to argue against 'effective one-man ambushes' as a legitimate tactic. If it's effective, what's wrong with it? You're trying to help your team win, and anything that furthers that goal effectively is a legitimate syle of play.
If a player, posessing an unusual degree of skill and accuracy with his marker, places himself in a concealed position to overwatch an important part of terrain, and, in doing so, effectively engages the opponent with limited, precise fire, without fear of return fire, and furthermore keeps in tune with the actions of his team and the overall strategic objective, then what's wrong with labelling that person a 'sniper'?
You don't need to make 800 yard shots to be a sniper. In modern military conflict, much 'sniping' occurs in an urban setting, with a few very skilled marksmen hiding in windows or rubble to control chokepoints, or engage enemy support teams. This often happens at very short range- under fifty yards, in some instances. I could tell a story from an urban combat exercise I was on with my unit where two of our snipers (we used Simunitions for this exercise) wiped out the better half of an enemy platoon single handedly, without being spotted or engaged, at about fourty yards' range. They werne't in an ambush setting, either- they advanced through a building to a suitable window with overwatch on the enemy building, and from there picked their shots into the enemy's main building, when the enemy was shooting from windows. But tell anyone on the exercise that they were not employed as 'snipers', and anyone with any credibility will tell you how full of **edited** you are.
This situation could be easily analogous to paintball. No, we'll never see a paintball game where people are making five hundred foot accurate shots through their scoped Phantoms, but paintball can be played in a way easily parallel to the majority of modern sniping in the military context.
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"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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Razgriz Ghost
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Posted: 15 September 2005 at 4:06pm |
Darur I made that thread after I saw this and others. I then made it clear in that thread that I don't care what anybody has to say about snipers anymore. Like them don't like them paintball is still a game and we should be talking about better things. Now if you feel like ripping this post apart be my guest. I've said all I wish to say on this topic.
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DBibeau855
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Posted: 15 September 2005 at 4:33pm |
Too...much...darur...pwnage...
/me falls over dead from so much pwnage.
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Nutteralex
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Posted: 15 September 2005 at 10:09pm |
There is sniping in paintball. I hit people from like 400 feet away. Jeeze your just jelous you don't have the skills like me.
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Please for the love of god don't get a flatline.
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Mack
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Posted: 16 September 2005 at 2:10am |
Hey I found it!! I am of course referring to the sniper criteria I mentioned above. The original poster listed 6 requirments the potential paintball sniper had to meet to be considered a sniper. They are shortened and in my own words, but I have not changed the meaning by doing so. Any difference would be in application, that is I apply the rules to the concept of being a paintball sniper, not a sniper in general. Without further ado, here is what Sr Crewchief (I believe) said a sniper must possess :
- Superior marksmanship skills
- Expertise in camoflage and concealment
- Ability to approach a target undetected
- Ability to engage targets beyond effective range of return fire
- Ability to engage target without revealing position
- Ability to egress area of engagement without being identified/engaged
The first 3 requirements apply with varying degrees of capability to all woodsball players. We all know people who run the gamut from scary to sucky in one or more of those areas.
Item 4 is a little trickier since all markers fire at a pre-determined maximum limit on most fields. The flatline is one way around this when used to engage targets in thick brush where arced return fire is not feasible. But the two people I know who best meet this criteria use different approaches with standard barrels. The gentleman I mentioned in my original post is very effective at stalking his prey and firing a single shot through a small opening in the intervening cover to get his elimination, after which a simple step to the side or back removes any chance of seeing him or returning fire at him. The other one is a young man who can lob paint in a phenomenal manner. His accuracy with single shots launched at a 30 degree or greater angle is just unbelievable. Couple this with the fact that he usually stands under a tree and fires through an opening in the canopy above him and he is able to eliminate others at long range with complete impunity.
Point 5 is mainly timing, i.e. not taking your shot when your location is under observation. A quiet marker helps, but is not mandatory if the shooter is good enough to eliminate his chosen target with the first shot. (It's usually the second shot that reveals location.)
Criteria 6 is the one I see the most people (not just would-be snipers) screw up on. Any engagement should not be initiated until an effective egress route (and an alternate if possible) has been selected; this applies to both lone individuals and teams. As Darur pointed out, communications is vital, so in the case of teams preparing an ambush, it is good practice to verify that everyone knows all aspects of the plan before implementing it, no matter how simple it is.
P.S. I'm not trying to stir up this discussion again, I think I've already agreed to disagree with those that think differently than I do. I did however, feel obligated to post these criteria, and how I apply them, since I brought them up earlier.
P.P.S. Brihard's comments got me started considering some flatline related issues: I won't hijack this thread by bringing them up here but I may start a thread specific to my questions over on the T&O forum. I would ask anyone with serious input to please keep an eye out for it. Considering the quality of their input here, I would be especially pleased to hear from Darur and Brihard.
P.P.P.S. Someone mentioned "pwnage" above; I wasn't aware that this was a game where points were tallied. I don't feel "pwned", and I definitely don't think I "pwned" anybody. I just think some of us had a very good internet discussion.
Edited by Mack
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Homer J
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Posted: 16 September 2005 at 8:06am |
Nutteralex wrote:
There is sniping in paintball. I hit people from like 400 feet away. Jeeze your just jelous you don't have the skills like me.
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bah 400 ft tahts leik, teh nuthinz, i hitz ppl frum leik a mile away.
noobface.
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Cheetos3254
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Posted: 16 September 2005 at 6:42pm |
TRC1040 wrote:
ok |
ha ha lol ![](smileys/smiley36.gif) I dont know why that seems so funny to me but.....ok
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Snake6
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Posted: 16 September 2005 at 7:05pm |
I have so much to say on this topic, but I have to get cought up on some work... Maybe later.
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SR_Crewchief
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Posted: 17 September 2005 at 8:03am |
I like it when someone quotes me!! But if your going too please state if your paraphrasing or quoting. (relevant discussion points added at the bottom) [Dahur you've seen them before]
Mack wrote:
Hey I found it!! I am of course referring to the sniper criteria I mentioned above. The original poster listed 6 requirments the potential paintball sniper had to meet to be considered a sniper. They are shortened and in my own words, but I have not changed the meaning by doing so. Any difference would be in application, that is I apply the rules to the concept of being a paintball sniper, not a sniper in general. Without further ado, here is what Sr Crewchief (I believe) said a sniper must possess :
- Superior marksmanship skills
- Expertise in camoflage and concealment
- Ability to approach a target undetected
- Ability to engage targets beyond effective range of return fire
- Ability to engage target without revealing position
- Ability to egress area of engagement without being identified/engaged
The first 3 requirements apply with varying degrees of capability to all woodsball players. We all know people who run the gamut from scary to sucky in one or more of those areas.
Item 4 is a little trickier since all markers fire at a pre-determined maximum limit on most fields. The flatline is one way around this when used to engage targets in thick brush where arced return fire is not feasible. But the two people I know who best meet this criteria use different approaches with standard barrels. The gentleman I mentioned in my original post is very effective at stalking his prey and firing a single shot through a small opening in the intervening cover to get his elimination, after which a simple step to the side or back removes any chance of seeing him or returning fire at him. The other one is a young man who can lob paint in a phenomenal manner. His accuracy with single shots launched at a 30 degree or greater angle is just unbelievable. Couple this with the fact that he usually stands under a tree and fires through an opening in the canopy above him and he is able to eliminate others at long range with complete impunity.
Point 5 is mainly timing, i.e. not taking your shot when your location is under observation. A quiet marker helps, but is not mandatory if the shooter is good enough to eliminate his chosen target with the first shot. (It's usually the second shot that reveals location.)
Criteria 6 is the one I see the most people (not just would-be snipers) screw up on. Any engagement should not be initiated until an effective egress route (and an alternate if possible) has been selected; this applies to both lone individuals and teams. As Darur pointed out, communications is vital, so in the case of teams preparing an ambush, it is good practice to verify that everyone knows all aspects of the plan before implementing it, no matter how simple it is.
P.S. I'm not trying to stir up this discussion again, I think I've already agreed to disagree with those that think differently than I do. I did however, feel obligated to post these criteria, and how I apply them, since I brought them up earlier.
P.P.S. Brihard's comments got me started considering some flatline related issues: I won't hijack this thread by bringing them up here but I may start a thread specific to my questions over on the T&O forum. I would ask anyone with serious input to please keep an eye out for it. Considering the quality of their input here, I would be especially pleased to hear from Darur and Brihard.
P.P.P.S. Someone mentioned "pwnage" above; I wasn't aware that this was a game where points were tallied. I don't feel "pwned", and I definitely don't think I "pwned" anybody. I just think some of us had a very good internet discussion.
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"In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper:
· A superior marksman
· Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment
· The ability to approach the target without being detected
· Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire
· The ability to engage the target without revealing your position
· The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged
The first three of these points are possible in the game of paintball, but do not make you a sniper, they just take some training and practice.
Let’s look at them one at a time.
A superior marksman
Basically someone who’s shooting skills are well above that of the average player. No big problem here, skill levels very, some people are just plain better than others.
Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment
This one is a little tougher. It takes knowledge of what will fool the eye into not seeing what is really there. It’s still doable though. Trained military have an advantage over the someone whose camouflage skills are solely based on hunting. Not because the non-military hunter is any less skilled but because of who the camouflage is intended to fool. But once armed with the knowledge of what the differences are this isn’t even a problem. So, yes this can be effectively applied to paintball.
The ability to approach the target without being detected
This one is a bigger problem. If just taken as being able to move close enough to a player that is already in place to make your shot undetected is very difficult. Since instinctively humans are hunters, our attention is automatically drawn to movement or things that are out of place. It’s takes someone that is extremely skilled in moving undected to pull this one off. But I have seen it done.
I should add to this the ability to setup a position that provides an undetected position from which to shoot that covers an area you expect your opponent to move through. A basic ambush.
Both require an undetected shooting position and can be effectively applied to paintball depending on skill level
The last three points are where the concept of a sniper in paintball fails.
Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire
No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range. Yes, that means Flatlines too. While Flatlines do have the ability, do to an aerodynamic backspin, shoot farther than other barrel systems the paintball still loses velocity at the same rate. What this means is that a paintball from a flatline loses the energy to break its shell at the same rate as one fired from a conventional barrel. The advantage of the flatline is initial flat trajectory that paintball has, which allows someone to fire under foliage that would otherwise break the ball. (The first failed point in being an effective sniper)
The ability to engage the target without revealing your position
Since the effective range is around 20-25m means that when you fire you have effectively revealed your general position. What I mean is this. Your shooting from such a close range that either the pop of your ball leaving the barrel or the sound of your bolt cycling (or both) will give your general position away to anyone with average hearing as far away as 40m. Unless you are only engaging 1 or 2 people or are extremely lucking you yourself can now be effectively counted as a mission kill. (The second failed point in being an effective sniper)
The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged
What this means is the ability move to a new shooting position after having engaged a target without being detected and counter-engaged your self. Since it’s been demonstrated that you can’t effectively engage a target without revealing your initial shooting position and exposing yourself to effective counter fire this one automatically fails. (The third failed point in being an effective sniper)"
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Nutteralex
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Posted: 17 September 2005 at 10:32am |
Give it up, there is no sniping in paintball. You just want to join the army but are to out of shape or to scared to get shot.
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Please for the love of god don't get a flatline.
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brihard
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Posted: 17 September 2005 at 6:12pm |
I'm in the army. I can run 16 kilometers. I can carry a rifle, grenade launcher, machinegun, or pretty much anything you care to give me on a patrol or raid. I can engage a target effectively with small arms from a half kilometer's distance. I AM scared of getting shot, which is why I love frag vests and (friendly) suppression fire. I also happen to believe that there can be snipers in paintball.
Any questions?
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"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."
-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.
Yup, he actually said that.
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